Does a gunfight at contact to 1 Yard really require shooting skills?

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Glamdring

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This thread http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27524
got me thinking again about skill set needed for self defense.

Note: I am not talking about LEO/SWAT/Military situations other than the ones the parallel the self defense situations the rest of us face. No mall ninja stuff!

Yes you need to have safe gun handling skills. And be familiar with using it so you don't fumble.

But wouldn't weapon retention skills & empty handed skills (say checking the opponents weapon arm/hand/weapon with one hand while making contact shots of your own) be of more use than having a good double tap or hammer?

***

Does anyone think close range ISN'T the primary danger zone?
 
My $0.02...?

I think that the more you train, the better off you are.

Do you "need" shooting skills at 1 yard? If you've never practiced drawing and firing at a target one yard away and you happen to be in that situation, wouldn't you WANT to have the skills needed to do so? Some might say that you don't need skill to draw and fire and hit at 1 yard but, to them, I say to go and try it under pressure. Go and try it at some place that uses Simunitions or something similar. Like anything, if you've never done it, you won't do well at it (unless it's a fluke).

ANY and ALL skills MIGHT be important at some time in life. It's up to the individual as to what should be emphasized.
 
I think what this question underscores is the need for shooters to have a broad array of CQB skills. Unfortunately many shooters completely disregard this seeing the gun as a kinda do it all tool.

I think the shooting skills you need at contact distance are just as important as others, particularly in the sense that it becomes more difficult to avoid taking a bullet from your own gun.

:cool:
 
sanchezero
I think what this question underscores is the need for shooters to have a broad array of CQB skills. Unfortunately many shooters completely disregard this seeing the gun as a kinda do it all tool.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I really think the up close skill set is where people interested in self defense should start. That is the danger zone. It doesn't take a lot of skill to end up with a mutual kill (ie both sides get lethal hits) since marksmanship isn't a real factor. Plus because of several factors most self defense situation are going to happen at close range.

So the way I see it. Close contact is most dangerous because it doesn't require skill to get hits. Most likely to be attacked at close range, hard to mug or rape someone at 7-10 yards. Goblin probably has to get close just so you could hear their demands.
 
Close range IS what gunfighting is all about. And yes, even well trained men/women can miss up close. In fact it is the norm.
Why? Too much "combat" training is still based on target/competition methods, with no correlation to the reality of sudden, ugly violence.
Point shooting, movement, use of unarmed/gun striking techniques and a ruthless "kill or be killed" mental attitude is what self defense shooters should be concentrating on.
As opposed to the latest stance, which way one's thumbs should be pointing, shooting out to 25 yards and other "forum fillers".
 
I think you gotta good point. A lot of the Walter Mitty types will disagree, but a cool head under all circumstances and ability to act will trump a lot of fancy drills and equipment that will probably not be there when the rubber meets the road.
 
While point shooting is dandy, at this distance it's less valuble than the stapler technique.

What becomes important is developing control of the immediate area between you and your opponent. This needs to be controlled before you pull the trigger. If you don't have a dominant position from which to fire, your shot most likely won't go where you want it and may very well end up in your own a$$.

I think sometimes we jump the gun up close. Sometimes we'd be better off NOT going to guns and taking advantage of having two hands free to take control of the situation before perforating the BG at our leisure. Of course, this requires a significant amount of training.

BTW, for fun, the movie 'Equlibrium' has some really cool (if totally unrealistic) close range gunfighting. The final scene is particularly cool, but don't get too excited; just think 'shooting from retention' :) .
 
Yes, I beleive you should practice close encounters. You never know when a BG will get as close as he can to try to grab you.

How about the Speed Rock? Ever hear of that? You set up a target and put your left hand on the target then step back and pull your gun from the holster and shoot the target at close range. Keeping your gun close to your body so the BG can't grab your gun. You are using your opposite hand to fend off the aggressor and pulling your gun out to get your shot off at the same time. Good to practice.

You do need to practice to keep up your skills. You need to be able in any situation to be able to take care of the BG.
Mrs. Toro


------------------------------------------------------------
1 John 2:7,8
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning, again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you; because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
 
Practice is mandatory if you want to survive. Everythings really peachy keen at the range, no stress. You ever been in a real incident? I came super close once and thank god I didn't have to pull.

It was over real quick when they realized I was about to up the ante and they left. I then found myself shaking uncontrollably from the adreniline dump. Took about 20 to 30 minutes to stop.

So, yes. extreme short range shootings require skill and muscle memory, so you better get busy.
 
Sully's basic course covered some aspects of touching distance firing...very useful. Worth practicing, if only to avoid missing (!) at one yard and also to avoid injuring yourself with your own bullet or slide or muzzle blast.
 
Interesting topic. I saw a one yard shooting on a Cops rerun last night. A guy with a knife was running down the freeway baiting the cops to shoot him while they followed him. They finally got him cornered against a squad car and he lunged at the closest officer. The officer got one off. It looked too close to call and I think the cop was lucky he didn't get cut. The guy finally dropped the knife and was taken to the hospital. It could have gone either way for the closest officer to the BG.

I guess the moral of the story is that unless it's your job to get within one yard of someone that intends to hurt/kill you, it's a situation to be avoided at all costs. Either way practice your different shooting techniques as much as you can. Range time is always fun.

There was another thread on this a while back. The lesson I took from it is to keep your non-shooting had safe. There were a couple of pictures of people who inadvertantly shot themselves. Not pretty.

Scott
 
Close range shooting is an essential part of defensive shooting. The problem with most people at close range is improper technique when drawing from a holster.

Another problem with close range shooting (and I mean on top of one another) is your firearm coming in contact with the BG. If you press your firearm against the BG and push it out of battery, you're screwed. An interesting technique for this it hold the slide shut with your non-dominant hand (this is not a technique I would suggest to new shooters/shooters without previous defensive training) while firing. The same can apply if you have to shoot through glass at that range (if you fire away from the glass, you may have secondary projectiles strike you).

Trying to give my 2 cents.:)
 
Tueller Drill

What do the name gun schools teach for handling someone inside the Tueller Limit (ie at 7 yards it is assumed near parity for drawing vs knife, what happens if badguy starts inside 7 yards?)?

What does Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, LFI, etc teach for 5 yards and under? Do they suggest ways to buy time or distance to stay alive long enough to apply a gun solution? Or do they teach alternate force techniques to buy time?
 
ACP: I have link to your thread in my first post. Or did you have another one I missed?
 
How should we practice Contact to 1 yard shooting?

I am starting to wonder if I need to get a paintball gun or something similar so I can practice contact range shooting with safety.

I suppose I could use primer driven wax or plastic bullets in my revolvers, if I don't fall into the trap of trying to go fast and focus on using techniques that would be safe with real ammo.
 
You can do that stuff live fire...IF your safe about it. I do it. You just gotta do it slow for smoothness. Slowly slowly let the speed come, but not too fast. You can do it semi slow motion and the muscle memory still builds.

Its like Tai Chi. Do it slow for a workout and training, and for defense it'll speed up by itself.

I've done the speedrock drills live at the range and even took it a step farther by falling to my back while putting 2 or 3 into the target.

DON'T TRY IT FAST. TRY IT SLOOW. LET THE MUSCLE MEMORY BUILD. THIS IS NOT SOMETHING FOR NEWBIES. BE HONEST WITH YOUR LIMITATIONS.

I still dont do it fast, but I'm getting smoother.
 
Lots of good advice and/or thoughts here, as usual. Here's another one, in the Tueller(sp?) drill, even though I have my .45ACP Commander on me, I ain't just gonna stand there with a guy with a knife running at me, first he's gonna need to catch me, if I got running room. In my house, it is a different matter. I stand my ground as much as possible to get the gun into play.

Course, the original question is about a 'gunfight' at 1 yard. I'd bet that the majority of actual modern day "goodguy vs badguy" gunfights is at this range when actual shots are exchanged. That's a very chilling scenario when you think about it. How many actually spend time training for this compared to setting up a few targets out 'a ways' and blasting away.
I know I'm going to concentrate more on this type situation than I have been.
 
If I'm ever involved in a gunfight at "bad breath range", I intend to apply the minimal knife training I've had to the gun.

That means side-stepping and staying in motion, and if possible put the barrel of a snubby right up at contact range to severely increase wounding power with the hot gas dump from an UNported barrel.

I consider every fight at that range a knife-fight, even if my "knife" is a gun.

If my wrist or hand holding my gun gets grabbed, I'm going to respond with the same "rollout" counter learned in knife class: drop the elbow while dipping and turning and either spin out of his grasp, or line the barrel up with his forearm and pull the trigger...giving a whole new meaning to "disarming" :barf:.

Once you realize that such "firing on contact" can happen, the idea of carrying a small slidegun over a snubby seems like less than a good idea.

The snubby, even in 38/38+P, is the king of the close-range fighting handguns.
 
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