Are there "gun kata" schools?

[Skribs]

I took Tae Kwon Do when I was a kid, and when I look back on it today, the biggest benefits I got out of it was physical exercise and personal discipline. I learned a lot more about self defense when I took wrestling in middle school. Anyway, to further extend my self-defense skills, I was thinking of starting back at a martial art school in the near future. I know some gunfighter courses cover this, but a gunfighter course isn’t the type of thing that you do on a weekly basis, from my understanding (unless you’re an instructor).

I figure that what I can get out of a martial arts class now, if I select the right one, is a way to keep in shape, and to hone my self-defense skills. However, I am wary that if I join a martial art, I will not learn defense skills that apply to gunfighting, but rather something more based on unarmed combat or combat with medieval weapons, which is what Tae Kwon Do was. I’d also be looking for something that is more of a self-defense-oriented class than a sport practice. I’m not interested in tournaments, just the practical lessons.

So my title of “gun kata” was a little far-fetched, but basically the idea that I’d be training myself to respond to the types of threats you can expect on the street (like a knife, bat, tire iron, chain, etc), defend against the initial attack and get the opponent into either a position of submission or away from me so that I can draw my gun and use it as incentive to get him to stop the attack (or use it if he doesn’t stop). From some of the other threads I’ve been reading, chances are I will have to use some hand-to-hand defense before I can draw my gun if attacked on the street.

The way I see it, I have two options. Option 1 would be to take a grappling martial art, such as jujitsu, and then draw when I have an opportunity. I could also do MMA instead, which throws wrestling/grappling amongst other things, although I think that is more sport training than self defense training. Option 2 would be if there is a school which teaches a martial art from a gunfighters perspective, then that would be even better.

Sorry for the ramble, but that is where I’m coming from. Anyone have any advice for me? Am I insane and overthinking it? Or are there others who have thought like me, and maybe even someone trained in the arts who has started a studio?

 

[jdh]

Rent the movie "EQUILIBRIUM".

 

[Skribs]

That's where I got the name from. It also doesn't answer the real question. I wasn't referring to a system based on analyzed gunfights where I put myself in the position least likely to be in the trajectory of incoming bullets while returning fire in the statistically probably position of my opponents...

...but rather I was looking for something that would allow me to get from the point of being attacked to gun drawn (and used as a passive or active attack stopper) with as little harm to myself as possible.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

http://www.insightstraining.com/

Start there... Take unarmed SD, defensive knife classes, then basic thru advanced pistol...

 

[azgun]

Black belt magazine did an article on hojutsu. Meaning fire art or fire fight. But it was how to disengage an assailant(s) and the draw your firearm. It was a great article and mixed my 2 loves martial arts and guns.

http://www.martialartofthegun.com/whatis.html

http://www.hojutsu.com/

 

[BullfrogKen]

I'll second taking classes from Insights with John Holschen and Greg Hamilton. You're already in Washington state, where they're home-based. You've got a great resourse there, make use of it.

John has over 30 years of Martial Arts experience and is an instructor in Daito Ryu Aiki Budo, Shorin Ken Karate Do, and Shotokan Karate. He is a two-time winner of the National Tactical Invitational and has placed among the top 5 practitioners each year that he has participated (9 times.) John has authored a number of analytical works discussing the training and tactics of international terrorists.

I was an NTI Team Member, and ran my pneumatically-operated shoothouse as an RSO/Judge there during 10 of the 20 years of the event. John attended nearly every year. Of all the people I ran through the event, on average the students who had been through the Insights program did better most.


John's a great guy, and a good friend. He's a humble man. He's a master in Japanese martial arts, and a master pistol-instructor. You'd be hard-pressed to find better.


I will also say that the footwork in a sword-based martial art is almost indistinguishable from a gun-fight based martial art. Get off the line of force and make your attack. The distances gun fights take place are the same that sword fights took place. The positioning is almost identical.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That really sounds interesting... enough for me to look into

I'd offer Michael Janich's Martial Blade Concepts. He knows the name is limiting, but that is what it was when he started and he's now stuck with it. He includes unarmed and firearms use in his system. It really is a practical real world based training system.

For a different martial art, with huge practical applications I'd recommend Baguazhang (or just Bagua) which is an internal power form as opposed to the external forms you've listed

 

[Skribs]

Some of these courses that you guys are recomending look good, but I was more looking for "continuing education" that I could do a few days a week, as opposed to a training course I sign up for every time I take it.

Looked up a brief description on that Baguazhang, it actually looks pretty interesting. One question: how the smeg do you pronounce it?

 

[Owen]

well, dry firing is a sort of kata, I suppose.

If you were to string together a series of positions, a reload or two, into a 15 to 20 position form...I don't see why you wouldn't call it a kata.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I suggest you look into Tony Blauer's S.P.E.A.R. System - http://tonyblauer.com/4105/02_01_01_spearsystem.asp

You can learn and develop practical skills from the DVDs - http://speargear.myshopify.com/collections/dvd

 

[Cosmoline]

Hojutsu in Japan is really just some very ur-primitive shooting with matchlocks. Not much can be learned from it, since western firearm arts are centuries more advanced.

But there is a "hojutsu" being developed stateside that seeks to combine the best of current western arms training with oriental martial arts techniques. Personally I draw the line at wearing robes and belts, but there is doubtless some useful information to be found from the mix.

Personally I'm hoping for a more practical mix of street fighting and firearm training. And some of the links look promising--even if they have too many acronyms.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Looked up a brief description on that Baguazhang, it actually looks pretty interesting. One question: how the smeg do you pronounce it?

I had a whole thing typed out and than found this short video

...and than this description
Ba is said in a high constant tone (first tone)

Gua (gwa) is spoken in a Falling/Rising (third) tone.

Zhang (jong) is also first tone, i believe (high constant)

 

[joecil]

Well I taught Tae Kwon Do, Kenpo and Aikido for about 20 years. I learned to shoot for tactical in Quantico Virginia in the late 70's as a contractor for the government. Karate is great but a gun is a different martial art all together. My advise is to find either good training videos or a good class on it. After than practice, practice, practice then practice some more until it becomes second nature to you.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Integration of combatives and firearms usage is pretty cutting edge stuff, and not being done much, in my experience on both the LEO and .mil side of things (though I know a couple lone-voice-in-the-wilderness types on my agency's academy staff who are promoting the idea of our defensive tactics and firearms training being integrated rather than the dual/separate tracks they are currently). On the plus side, our DT training program does at least include some iterations done in duty belts and gear actually worn on the street, which puts it way ahead of the .mil side (at least the army) in terms of practical application and a real fighting mindset. Army MACP instructors usually give me dirty looks whenever I ask how I'm going to do any of the ground fighting stuff they fixate on while wearing sixty pounds of body armor and kit and with an M4 strapped to my torso (and never mind any consideration of what's going to happen when the bad guy's buddy walks around the corner with an AK while I'm down on the ground trying to wrestle him into an arm bar . . .).

The closest thing to a real kata involving firearms I can think of is the already mentioned stuff about doing reloads, clearing stoppages, and other manipulation drills. Part of the problem with evolving that further may be that agencies and instructors don't want to train an immediate action drill that automatically progresses to deadly force. The liability issues of programming muscle memory or whatever to incorporate drawing and shooting have some apocalyptic worst-case scenarios in civil suits when someone you've taught responds with disproportionate force to some sort of encounter.

 

[Skribs]

I think Bagua is what I'm looking for, 9mm. Thanks.

 

[Skribs]

I was thinking about it, and I think I'd rather have experience from a martial art before I take a seminar that includes physical combat. Reason being that I will have more muscle memory of hand-to-hand combat when I go into the seminar, and might be able to better practice at home without instruction. Part of the issue is you can watch a video, but without instruction you might end up doing things all wrong.

 

[theautobahn]

If you can find someone legitimate who teaches Krav Maga, that might be a good place to start. The problem is that there are a lot of posers out there.

Otherwise, my suggestion would be to take a combatives based martial art (if you walk in and see a bunch of trophies on the wall, that's a good indication you're in the wrong place). As you train, think about how you would apply each technique in regard to carrying a gun.

If you do some research, you'll find some martial arts are GENERALLY more sport / competition bases while others are more combat based. EG: Tae Kwon Do, Judo, are generally "sportier". Ju-Jutsu, Hakkido are more "combative". Karate can go either way.

Basically just do your homework on the schools in your area. One trick (doesn't always work) is to look at the instructor's belt. If it's nice and clean and new-looking, that's not usually a good thing. Most traditional (combat) traditionally lean toward wearing the same belt forever (there's an old legend about old-time karate practitioners starting with a white belt and by the time they are "masters", it's black from dirt and age).

 

[Skribs]

Well, I was looking at some of the other martial arts, especially the type used by some of the action movie legends (such as Wing Chun), because the up-close style would fit my small body, but they are too aggressive. There isn't an opportunity when pressing in to draw. I'll look at Krav Maga to see if I like it.

That is a good point on the trophies.

ETA: Looked up Krav Maga, I think I like it for its practicality aspect. Not sure which I like the concepts better between that and Bagua, since it seems to be more aggressive - but also focus on quick incapacitation. How do you tell between a "real" trainer and a "poser" trainer?

 

[WardenWolf]

I've done some of my own Gunkata-inspired training, taking shooting positions and training techniques to heart. Once you train sufficiently with two-finger "gun" pointing (index and middle fingers extended, ring and pinky closed), you'll find yourself instinctively placing your gun on-target even without looking down the sights. It trains you to point the gun like you would point your finger. I've tested this with a variety of unloaded pistols, and it works. Very well. I can even dual wield and accurately hit a target (though I was ambidextrous to start with).

 

[theautobahn]

How do you tell between a "real" trainer and a "poser" trainer?

For Krav Maga, it would be the Israeli accent.

There's no magic litmus test. You need to use your judgement. Most schools will let you audit / sit in on a class or two before joining, even if just to watch and not participate (liability for non-student participation). Once you've visited three or four or five schools, you should have a much better idea. Also, if you're friendly with any LEO's that are into MA, ask them where they train.

And ask questions, both of the instructor and the students. The instructor may feel he's teaching in a certain way but the students may be getting something completely different from the training.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've been into both firearms and martial arts since I was around 10 years old. I have taken an Awerbuck class on close quarter combat that mixed some basic martial arts for real close range stuff. My kenpo instructor is a big gun nut as well and often will shoot together. There are some bits of training here and there as discussed above but nothing comprehensive. My general advice would be to find a martial art and study that. I think krav maga might be a good one as it seems to cut out some of the fluff that many systems have. Also, I'd recommend you find a school where you can learn some sort of stick fighting such as arnis or escrima. That will help round you out. A couple of years ago when talking to Awebuck (I've taken a lot of classes from him) I asked about things to work on before the next time I saw him. He discussed trying to keep my various fighting arts from confusing me (it was more detailed than that). I did work on it for quite a while so that the stance I use for shooting, empty hand, and stick or knife fighting is the same. For those who care, I like a modified weaver with one leg slightly back. There are pros and cons to it but it's what works best for me. If you study martial arts enough you will naturally blend the gun fighting into it. My two centsn

 

[WardenWolf]

Keep in mind that the "no-fluff" martial arts often leave out critical parts, like how NOT to seriously injure someone. You occasionally hear stories of Special Forces people who wind up in physical combat off the battlefield, and they wind up severely injuring or killing someone because their training didn't teach some of the less-damaging subdual techniques. There's gaps in their training that did not leave them other options. These militarized martial arts can also be a major legal liability should you ever need to put them into practice, because, in the eyes of the prosecutor and a jury, you are a "trained killer". If you have time to devote to a more traditional and well-rounded martial art, you will probably be better off.

 

[Skribs]

Warden, if I'm being attacked, not-injuring my attacker isn't a concern. Getting him and myself into a position where I can draw is.

 

[Fred Fuller]

If your physical location is convenient to Insights, as Ken suggested, I wouldn't look much further than John Holschen if I were you. I knew John as an instructor at SOMTC (Special Operations Medical Training Center) at Ft. Bragg, and his approach is completely practical while being thoroughly grounded in a martial arts background.

And I'd keep an eye on Craig Douglas' schedule - if he gets up your way, his POI is a must-have IMHO. http://shivworks.com/?page_id=2

 

[sidheshooter]

I can personally vouch for the teaching of Greg Hamilton and Michael Janich, as above.

I hope to be able to personally vouch for others as time and money permit-particularly Jeff Hall, who is embarrassingly close to me by car. I'll make a point of checking him out sometime within the calendar year. I've met him several times, and he seems to have good ideas.