Does a gunfight at contact to 1 Yard really require shooting skills?

[voilsb]

Just to add to my previous post:

I haven't actually tried the method described in the linked article about pointshooting. I did dry-fire draws, but I used my index finger, not my middle finger, as my trigger finger. It still pointed pretty naturally. And there's no way I'm going to use that attachment; it's completely unnecessary.

 

[CWL]

Hey Glamdring,

Just to add onto our discussion. I definitely do not think that it is a good idea to start beginners out with HTH tactics. I think that it adds false perceptions of ability when they haven't gotten past the basics yet (gotta crawl before walk). A few hours spent in a week-long class grappling & speed rocking with a 1-yard foe is gonna cause havoc. I think that instructors are correct when they reserve this for more advanced students.

-I no longer have the numbers, but even LEOS experienced with fighting BGs HTH, have shot themselves while scuffling.

Here's the dangers for novices (and I don't claim to be a master gunfighter), they get a few hours of close up work in addition to their safety basics and drawing excercises. Typical new gunowners are gonna go home & start practicing HTH speedrocks rather than smoothing out their holster draw and stance/hold techniques. -Can you see this as dangerous if someone skips over their basics?

Then there is the danger of mall ninjas who will buy a book or video (we have enough of them already) and think it'll impart SEAL-level mastery to them. These guys will be blowing holes in the walls, floors and themselves in no time.

If you look at military training basics or a good martial-arts class, the importance of safety are drilled into the novice ad nauseum before anything dangerous is put into their hands or into their minds.

 

[okjoe]

In the first test I made of P&S back in 9/98, after some warm up shooting, I put 6 out of 7 slugs in a chest sized target at 25 feet pointing my finger and pulling the trigger as fast as I could with my middle finger. Not bad for an old geezer who had not shot a gun in over forty years prior to the test.

sanchezero said that my hits were all over the target in the test he was referring to .

Well for out of the five hits made with the Kahr K9, can be covered by a dollar bill. Put one up against your chest and imagine 4 nine mill slugs hitting it and going thru it. And the fifth one was in the scoring ring.

I am real sorry if all the hits were not in a one inch group. NOT.

Two days ago, 7/3/03, using pie plates, I did the same thing using a Glock 26.

Check out the pictures.

http://www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm

No stance or dance, no sights, no trigger control....no problem.

It seems to me that any bozo, with little or no training, and who shoots only now and then, could shoot very well using P&S.

You don't have to like it, agree with it, use it, or whatever.

P&S works slick for me, and it's free.

 

[MarineTech]

Does a gunfight at contact to 1 Yard really require shooting skills?

You betcha. Try this sometime. Get a LARGE friend to assist you and one of those small suction tip dart guns or other harmless toy gun that can fire a projectile. Preferable one that would fit your existing carry holster.

Now, prepare the toy gun in the same manner you keep your carry firearm (Condition 1, 2, 3, etc) and return it to your holster.

Now comes the fun part.

Have your friend grab you by the lapels and start shaking the living crap out of you. I mean REALLY shaking you. Tell him to think of you like a can of soda he's going to give to somebody he dosen't like.

OK, now try to draw your "gun", ready it for action (depends on the method you carry it in), and shoot him.

I'll save you a lot of time and effort and tell you that it is not easy to do, and is a very humbling experience overall. Darn near gave me whiplash when I tried it. The thing that I learned was, at that distance, shooting skills are necessary, but secondary to being able to retain your firearm and defend yourself while bringing it to bear.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

OKJOE...many of us here agree with you on the need for point shooting. And I know quite a few PShooters who can shoot groups similar/smaller than yours. While useing the normal trigger finger.
The question is this..why do you prefer to shoot with the middle finger? What made you even think of doing such a thing?
I believe this is the core of our disagreement.

 

[Glamdring]

MarineTech: If someone grabs you with both of their hands you should be able to quickly disable them with unarmed techniques. Since they are holding you with both hands they can't defend themself with anything.

Simple ones based on weapon retention skills might involve pinning their hands (so they can't let go) and deepen your stance (use your body wt to pull them off balance). Then you can pivot which would give you a simple type of joint lock if you keep their hand(s) pinned, or you can use football like swim technique (or others) to break hold for a release.

You can also just reach up and break one or two fingers at a time. Or just kick them in the knee.

Also if you carry a "combat folder" you can draw and slice up the tendons of the arm.

If your more skilled you can use the judo technique that involves putting your feet into them and throwing over you, but that involves skill and timing.

Some of these techniques work only if you have near parity in size others work even if much smaller and weaker than attacker (attacking fingers or knee, and using a knife).

***

Another VERY important note. Most techniques work best if started before attacker has finished attack and/or if they surprise attacker. Letting someone complete their attack without throwing their timeing off is bad strategy.

***

CWL: I think I am starting to see at least part of why we are disagreeing. I am not thinking speed rock for much contact range combat. That is an all or nothing technique that leaves you with little else to try if it fails (what happens from speed rock with failure to stop?).

I am talking about integrated techniques using empty hands, knife, and gun. Most of what I am talking about would involve using non shooting techniques to get you to a position of advantage (off the line of force/attack) before you attempted shooting (or even drawing, if you had gun out to start with then I think Plan "A" is shoot them off the muzzle). Not techniques that simply involve shooting from retention position at a close target.

Proper tactics reduce risk of injury from both opponent and self IMHO.

 

[okjoe]

As to why I use the middle finger, let's go back some fifty years or so.

Then, I was told to aim my greasegun with my index finger placed along the side of the gun, and use my middle finger when shooting from the hip. I was told to do that by an old WWII Sgt back in 54 when qualifying.

I didn't want to NOT qualify, so I was concerned about doing what he told me to do.

Well, I did what he said when shooting from the hip, and did notice when I shot, wood chips fling off the target which had a wood 1x4 down the center to support it.

Nice center hits.

It worked and I qualified as an expert.

Now to bring us up to the present sort of, several years ago, I saw the shootout on TV where those two brothers were stopped by the side of the road. And a shootout ensued where one cop dumped his gun and the other brother appeared to also do that, and they were about 15 feet apart, and nobody hit nothing but air.

I was amazed as I had since my army days of long ago, thought those who carried and used guns, knew what they were doing and how to use them. I thought "What the...., they need help."

A few days later, I thought of my pointing and aiming and hitting way back in 54....and I thought, why not with pistols too.

I read where an FBI supervisor said that accuracy in armed encounters is about 19 percent. There was Bruce Siddle's book on the fight or flight response in CQB situations and why Sight Shooting fails. Then there were the DOJ stats on the constant and unchanging police casualty rates over the past ten years. I found out about the CAR system, target Focus Fighting, the SOP 9, etc...

Didn't know all that stuff at the start, but I did know what worked.

I wrote an article about P&S, got it published in the Southern Lawman (1998).

One thing led to another.

Walter Dorfner, the former lead instructor for the VSP contacted me and said that he heard of me, and also that he had written a paper based on his development and experimentation with the same method.

He sent it to me, I studied it, made a digest and we both got it published in several police publications (1999).

Based on more searching for and discovering more info, I wrote more articles and sent them to PD's accross the country and also posted them to BB's, and got some published as well in police publications.

Fact is, I was also looking for info to prove me wrong so I could stop, as not only was it getting to be a chore, but talk about NEGATIVE !!! feedback from the traditionalist Sight Shooters and true believers. I was also spending money on a patent search and such as that.

It's funny now to think back about it, just as the criticism received here by the diehard sour grape types is sort of humorous.

But then, and even now at least some of the time, it really pisses me off!

But I get over it.

I'm just a grumpy old fart that seldom shoots so what the hell could I know.

Fact is, I was right then, and still am, P&S WORKS.

Traditional Sight Shooting sucks for use in CQB situations, and the training on Sight Shooting for use in CQB, has caused the injury and death of lots of cops and civilians (there are no stats available on civilian use as gun efficiency and shooting methods not studied by gov agencies or consumer protection groups).

Check out my site, all the info I have gathered, and articles are there. And most evry item is free.

NEW ARTICLE:

I just finished a new article on using the middle finger to pull the trigger as recommend by and tacitly approved by the US Army:
http://www.pointshooting.com/thedots.htm

The reason to use it, is that if you use the index finger to instinctively, rapidly and accurately engage the target and fire your first shot (per what the US Army says we can do), what makes you think that you can just blast away with all subsequent shots and do as well?

I say do what the US Army says, and point and engage with each shot or keep pointing and engaging, as that is what works, as proven to me in my tests, and via pictures of the results of those tests.
http://www.pointshooting.com/guntests.htm

No stance, no dance, no sights, no trigger control. No problem.

Just Point & Shoot as fast as you can Point & Shoot.

4 out of 5 hits at 12 feet in a second or two that can be covered by a dollar bill, should be sufficient to stop most threats.

If not just keep Pointing & Shooting as the US Army says you can.

And if that in home distance is to close for some, keep in mind that a group of that size will still hit a chest sized target at over 20 feet.

 

[okjoe]

Eric,

If there are questions about the validity of any of my posts, you may want to peruse the articles and info on my site.

Some may have questions about: retention, what about this, or what about that. Most all of them are addressed in one form or another.

The crux of the matter is that anyone can test P&S using good and safe gunhandling, and common sense, and see if they like it or not.

..........................

As to the need for some skill in shooting at up close and personal distances, here is some data from the NYPD SOP 9, which some say is accurate and some say is not...and so it goes. I say, use it until something better comes along.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

..........

There is no data that I am aware of that goes down to 1 yard and less.

It would be nice if the NRA or some consumer group made a study of such, as that info could be of life saving value to their members.

Based on a chart I made that is on my site, if you have a standard sized gun (around 6 in) and have the muzzle 1 inch off of dead center when you shoot, the bullet will miss the center of your target by 8 inches at 5 feet, so you would miss at 5 feet.

Now, given a real CQB situation, you could be assured of a hit with contact unless you pushed your gun out of battery.

And anything much beyond a foot could be a crapshoot.

So that is where some simple, instinctive, quick and accurate technique, might give you the edge and save your bacon.

Most any plan with some practice would be better than no plan and no practice.

If one has a gun but no plan as to when and or how to use it, I suggest they trade it for a baseball bat.

The topic also makes one wonder how a person who carries a gun, gets that close to a lethal threat without being aware that something is up. I imagine that in police work, it could happen, But I don't know much about that.

My focus is only on how to aim and shoot or Point & Shoot. How one gets to that point is another matter.

This is my last post to this thread. Thanks for putting up with me.

 

[sanchezero]

:banghead:

 

[Paul Gomez]

If you're defensive skill sets don't address the realities of close range fighting, you are screwed. Inside of 1yd, heck inside of 5yd, if "access a tool" is your default action, you will lose. Simple, aggressive emptyhand skills are what enable you to access your tools (be they gun, stick, knife, OC, whatever). And your tool-bearing responses need to integrate with your emptyhand applications for them to be truly effective in the extreme close quarters environment.

 

[okjoe]

sanchezero

Here I am again.

Sorry, but I am sort of like those who may not stay "dead" like - as in the movies.

I was in the US Army as a regular, from 53 to 56.

I qualified as expert with an M-1, Carbine, and grease gun; did and can still shoot both light and heavy machine-guns, (our radio van had a ring mounted fifty), have shot rifle-grenads, a bazooka (3.5 in rocket), and thrown a mean hand grenade. Even walked guard duty with a loaded carbine (which was not what most soldiers did in the US in those days). Plus as a kid, I have shot bb guns, air pistols, 22's, and later on a variety of pistols, and been in a few fist fights to boot.

So, I do know how to shoot.

I have conducted several test shoots in which I have proven that what I say about P&S, does work.

My point of departure is to save Police Officer lives, and civilian lives.

Police and civilians alike, have in the past, obviously relied on information and traditional shooting instructions that have been based on well intentioned theory.

However, based on "recent" scientific studies, video cam recordings, DOJ stats, etc., those traditional instructions (which still focus on Sight Shooting for use in CQB situations and officer qualifications), have resulted in the death of hundreds and hundreds of police officers, and thousands and thousands of police officers being wounded.

Have you got numbers dealing with civilain casualty rates in CQB situations??? I don't.

Sight Shooting which may be good for long distance rifle combat, just sucks in CQ gunfights. Would be that it doesn't, but I am not in charge of such as that.

Additionally, and to add insult to those who have been killed and/or injured, via their bad instructors and instructions, some gun instructors have said that those who have been shot and/or killed are at fault!

To paraphrase what a current and nationally known instructor ( who apparently has changed his tune recently), said about those police who have been shot and/or killed: "That was due to operator error, they did not train enough."

Lastly, I am not picking on you, as I hope such discussions as this, will be a help to those looking for advice and or direction.

You just happend to be the bee buzzing about my bonnet at this time.

PS

Let's bring all of our forces home where they belong, and hire the UN peace keepers to keep the peace even though as I understand it, we pay the UN peace keepers of ALL other countries (even third world countries), two or three or more times what our service personnel get paid.

 

[sanchezero]

OK, joe. The beating head was my quick retort since you said you were done with this one.

Who put you in charge of anything?

I'm not in charge of anything here.

My point of departure is to save Police Officer lives, and civilian lives.

My contention is that from a weapons retention standpoint, gripping the gun with 2 fingers is worthless. The fact that you'll never be as accurate with your 2 finger grip and middle finger pull is secondary. By pushing a CQB system with NO ability to retain your weapon you advocate an inherently dangerous position.

Sight Shooting which may be good for long distance rifle combat, just sucks in CQ gunfights.

While this is debateable (and has been, ad nauseam), I've certainly never said that pointshooting wasn't valuble. I tend to pointshoot more than I sight shoot. However, the standard of markmanship (speed and accuracy) which you hold yourself to isn't acceptable to me, particularly under the conditions you're shooting in. I don't believe your accuracy will improve with the technique you use tho.

I feel that if you've decided to set yourself up as an instructor in a new technique you've developed, you need to demonstrate it's superiority or at least equality to comparable techniques. You don't. Add to that the numerous other disadvantages, and it just doesn't add up.

How much time do you think you would have, or how much your butt would be worth, if the other side came across the line? How many have you killed personal and up close in CQB encounters?

I'm not gonna jump up and down about this stuff except to say that my military experience is comparable to yours. On top of that I'll mention that it seems foolish to 'call out' someone in an attempt to illustrate a weakness when you don't know whether or not that weakness exists.

And finally, I'll mention that you might wanna look into checking this out using sims/airsoft and some guys that know what they're doing. If you're serious about testing this idea I submit you need some empirical proof to hold against it's more apparent deficiencies.

 

[okjoe]

Thank you for your response.

As to retention, the gun is securly held by the thumb, fold of the hand, and index finger.

That provides a strong, level, and secure shooting platform that is not attainable when the index finger is held aloof and used to squeeze the trigger.

Also, when the index finger is straightened it helps to lock up the wrist.

The little and ring fingers have hinge joints which roll forward and give tenacity to the grip.

The gun is also held by the base of the middle finger.

The shooting platform is not strong and level when the gun is held with the thumb and middle finger and the index finger is kept aloof. Actually the harder you grip with the thumb and middle finger, the more it will rotate. That probably accounts for a lot of low left shooting.

There is a discussion on my site about the anatomy of the hand which also addresses the nerves that serve the hand. The middle finger has nerves on both sides, is stronger, pulls straighter back thru the hand, etc...

Again P&S may not work for you and with your gun, and one does not have to use it.

However, P&S is more than an idea. It works, and that's a fact.

It is brain dead simple.

So, if someone needs an instructor to use it, I suggest they ask whoever has given them training.

The method is free.

As to improving, what's wrong with four in a dollar bill sized group at 12 feet when not using any special stance, or a grip other than just grabbing the gun, not using the sights, and pulling the trigger as fast as one can point and pull it?

That should be good enough for most of the millions of those who have a gun at home for self defense use, and a big improvement over what they are now doing.

Would more practice help? Certainly wouldn't hurt.

The US Army calls for point shooting at < 5 yards and for shooting at night.

The US Army says that we all have the instinctive ability to rapidly and accurately engage targets by pointing at them. And that ability can be used with most hand held weapons "as is" and with little or no training.

As such, if you won't or don't use that ability to engage, and defeat an enemy, will you not in reality, be surrendering to the enemy who is trying to kill you and/or your family.

And lastly, sorry if my prior post was abrupt. I was going to remove it, but now it is there. I have edited it out some.

Thanks again for your response.

I will now try and shut up for a month or so .

 

[Glamdring]

Well I picked up a 637 today (the P32 will become spare always gun or BUG to the J frame once I get a holster for the snubbie).

My buddy asked why I got an exposed hammer version of the J frame. I decided what it came down to is that 75% or so of my practice will be one handed DA "point shooting" for what I consider realistic self defense range (contact to 6 or so FEET). The rest will be split between isosoles (sp?) DA shooting with target focus, and SA shooting from a weaver (that is how I shoot my 44 mag and 357 mag with heavy loads in practice and hunting, so it is what I would most likely revert to if I had the time/need for a "long shot").

I know from my shooting of my DA 44 and 357 mags that SA weaver for me is MUCH more accurate, but slower, than DA revolver fire for me.

 

[dgg9]

It seems to me that any bozo, with little or no training, and who shoots only now and then, could shoot very well using P&S.

There are a whole host of issues you're not addressing.

Surely you don't think that what's done at the static range translates to the street automatically?

 

[dgg9]

Fact is, I was right then, and still am, P&S WORKS.

What exactly does that mean? It "works" in the range? But almost everything "works" in the range.

Have you given any consideration at all to the differences between range and street?

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Not to mention why the need to shoot with the middle finger. And if it is so natural, why attach a device to the weapon.