Does bolt action make a difference?

[bush3755]

Seems to me that the fewer parts there are in a rifle that have to go back into the exact same place for every shot, the better accuracy it can produce.

Has any 22 caliber rifle type other than bolt action ones won benchrest matches and set a few records doing so?

 

[Tirod]

Be careful thinking that barrel length or it's profile has any guarantee of providing increased accuracy. Anyone can buy a 30" bull barrel with poor rifling and wind up thinking they were the limiter.

Plenty of 16" light profile barrels are highly accurate, and their owners don't need to post up in defense of them. Those threads do exist, tho.

Barrel profile can help control it warping due to inclusions - as it heats up it may start wandering around. But it implies the barrel blank wasn't that high grade to begin with. And barrel length can aid in accuracy when using iron sights - it lengthens the sight radius. But if it puts the muzzle at a high vibration node then the extra length isn't doing any good. That's why barrels are tested for their best accuracy by cutting them down and recording the results.

One of those results was the Euro battle rifle makers running .308 at 18" because it delivered the best compromise in accuracy and handling in the field. Look to the issue sniper guns, too - plenty of exceptional accuracy, but definitely not a heavy bench profile or exceptionally long barrel.

Working up the ammo to be the most compatible often gives better results than assuming the profile and length will help.

 

[dvdcrr]

My last 4 ARs out of the box have been more accurate than 2 recent Bolt action rifles. The care in manufacturing can be lacking in a bolt. Theyve got the AR thing down pat now though.

 

[GAMEOVER44]

I have a 358 that would make any 7.62 look like crap. Its a bolt action GSR and its a nail driver. Heavyer hitter too then the 7.62!! Id stick in the 300s, 308 and up.. and bolt action.

 

[Slamfire]

Seems to me that the fewer parts there are in a rifle that have to go back into the exact same place for every shot, the better accuracy it can produce.

Has any 22 caliber rifle type other than bolt action ones won benchrest matches and set a few records doing so?

I agree. Benchrest shooters use bolt actions. So, if you get rid of the human, replace the human with a concrete bench, 75 pounds of sandbags, and a highly sophisticated front rest, why sure, the most accurate rifle will be a bolt rifle. However, when the aiming error and holding error induced by humans are added back in, both of which are greater than the inherent accuracy to be found in a good gas gun, it is very difficult to establish which action is more accurate.

For best accuracy, get rid of the human. In the future, like the current status in Chess, electronic devices that eliminate the human will be winning rifle competitions. In the future there will be arguments which computer is the most accurate, probably between computers!

 

[bush3755]

...when the aiming error and holding error induced by humans are added back in, both of which are greater than the inherent accuracy to be found in a good gas gun, it is very difficult to establish which action is more accurate.

In looking at the NRA High Power Match results, bolt guns tend to shoot better scores than gas guns. Bolt guns have faster lock times, simpler designs and lighter-crisper triggers which makes them easier to shoot more accurate than a gas gun with equal accuracy when both are fired from accuracy cradles. Bolt guns also allow better handloads made for them for reliable functioning and accuracy. I doubt gas guns will shoot as accurate as bolt guns when fired from accuracy cradles with ammo they're reliable with.

Therefore, I think it's easy to tell which type shoots most accurate when both are fired by equally competent marksmen holding onto them. But the difference will be small.

 

[Cee Zee]

Be careful thinking that barrel length or it's profile has any guarantee of providing increased accuracy

I know that. But a good 30" barrel can be better than a good 16" barrel if it's done well. The one I was thinking of was the Savage barrels on their F class rifles. They are pretty good quality. There's a reason the top benchrest shooters use longer barrels. But you're right that it is no guarantee that it will be better.

 

[Capt. Obvious]

Well, I wasn't considering the 300's and up basically due to the cost of the rounds. However, I will also keep those calibers in mind now. I have lots to research and read. I'll look into those sniper magazines for their thoughts.

rbern: the paper won't be impressed. That was a good one. Maybe that is the entire shooting problem I'm having right now. I'm trying to impress the targets. Heh heh heh.

 

[bush3755]

How can a good 30" barrel can be better than a good 16" barrel if it's done well?

If their bore, groove and twist dimensions and tolerances are the same, what difference does that have on the bullet other than the velocity it leaves at?

 

[Harrington-Richardson]

I have a Rem. 700 PSS, in 308 Win. Match grade rifle, barrel, etc. Leupold Mark V scope, Jewel trigger. I've precision loaded ammo for this rifle using cheap .30 cal bullets. Cheap bullets go all over the place. They're not balanced, not weight consistent.

7.62 X 39mm does what it was intended to do: Heavy bullet on a torso size target at under 300 yds, and mostly under 100 yds. I have a Marlin Mod. 1894 in .44 mag that works the same way. Match grade ammo in a match grade barrel, and I expect 7.62 X 39mm performs just fine at short distance.

But it's not a target caliber, about the same ballistics as 30-30 Win.

 

[Harrington-Richardson]

How can a good 30" barrel can be better than a good 16" barrel if it's done well?

If their bore, groove and twist dimensions and tolerances are the same, what difference does that have on the bullet other than the velocity it leaves at?

Depends on how the bullet leaves the case and engages the rifling -- If the bullet engages before it is centered on its long axis, it will wobble as it spins. Longer barrel will reduce this wobble somewhat.

 

[Slamfire]

...when the aiming error and holding error induced by humans are added back in, both of which are greater than the inherent accuracy to be found in a good gas gun, it is very difficult to establish which action is more accurate.

In looking at the NRA High Power Match results, bolt guns tend to shoot better scores than gas guns. Bolt guns have faster lock times, simpler designs and lighter-crisper triggers which makes them easier to shoot more accurate than a gas gun with equal accuracy when both are fired from accuracy cradles. Bolt guns also allow better handloads made for them for reliable functioning and accuracy. I doubt gas guns will shoot as accurate as bolt guns when fired from accuracy cradles with ammo they're reliable with.

By the way, notice that the NRA target is only 2 MOA. Basically if you can shoot 2 MOA for 80 rounds all the way out to 600 yards, you would shoot a perfect score. For the four day NRA XTC Highpower Match at Camp Perry, I don't think anyone has ever shot a perfect score. All of the top competitors have rifles capable of half MOA, so, given that these rifles shoot into one quarter of the bull, there ought to be lots of perfect scores, but there are not. You would think that so many internet posters claiming they always shoot sub MOA, at all conditions, at least one of these keyboard shooters would set a National Record.

A number of shooters have won the National Matches with target rifles built on the AR15 action. Carl Bernosky is one.

http://www.6mmbr.com/6brblog.html

COMPETITION--Bernosky Sets New High Power Record: 2007 Camp Perry National High Power Champion Carl Bernosky added another milestone to his list of achievements this past weekend. Shooting the same AR15-platform rifle that carried him to victory at Camp Perry, Carl shot an 800-41X score on the New Holland (PA) 200, 300, 600-yard National Match course. When certified, that will be a new National record. The previous record was an 800-38X (shot by T. Lawton in 2005). Carl modestly downplayed his achievement: "This time the close ones were on the inside instead of the outside."

In High Power matches, competitors shoot in three different positions -- standing, sitting, and prone -- and iron sights are used. This makes High Power one of the most challenging of all rifle disciplines. Carl feels that his AR-platform gun does give him some benefits over other rifle designs. Carl noted: "For me, I shoot better standing scores with the AR. I can't tell you why exactly, but certainly the self-loading feature of the rifle allows me to maintain position better shot to shot. The other advantage is in rapid-fire prone. There I think it is a real plus not to have to work the bolt."

Carl Bernosky's rifle features a custom upper built by John Holliger on a Smith & Wesson M&P15 lower with Geiselle trigger. The upper has a 26" Krieger barrel chambered in the 6mm Hagar. This is a new wildcat cartridge based on the 30 Remington case, necked down to 6mm. The 6mm Hagar resembles a 6.8 SPC with a .100? longer body, 30-degree shoulder, and greater case capacity. It has a .420 rim diameter, and is formed from .30 Remington brass. At New Holland, Carl shot alongside Robert Whitley. Carl said he was impressed by Robert's new 6mmAR Turbo round. The 6mmAR Turbo is based on 6.5 Grendel cases necked to 6mm with the shoulder blown forward slightly. Carl told us: "If Robert's 6mmAR Turbo can really shoot the 105s at 2880+ fps, then it should be competitive with the 6mm Hagar, and the brass is available right now. Whitley's cartridge looks like it has great potential."

For ultimate mechanical accuracy, the bolt rifle is more accurate. But, in a game such as Across the Course, you have to shoot standing (200 yards), sitting rapid fire (200 yards), prone rapid fire (300 yards), and prone slow fire at 600 yards. The "best" rifle is a compromise. One year someone analyzed the scores of the top shooters, and what separated them was standing. A self evident truism is that you win the match standing and lose it prone. This is so true. Everyone at the top level cleans the rapids, they are only a point or two different at 600 yards, but standing, standing is a house of pain and torment.

Palma shooters, I don’t recall any Palma Shooters using gas guns. In their game, the bolt rifle is the best platform.

I would like all of those claiming that there is one best action, to go out and shoot one of these events. If you can’t hit an eight by eight foot target standing at 200 yards, it really does not matter what action you are using. And then, get you out to 600 yards. Recently I was talking to some bud's, one was paired with a guy who was supremely confident of his 600 yard zero, because he had a firm 50 foot zero. Needless to say, the poor pit pigs worked very hard that day, as Mr. 50 Foot was all over the place, sometimes, not even his target.

 

[Cee Zee]

For the four day NRA XTC Highpower Match at Camp Perry, I don't think anyone has ever shot a perfect score.

FWIW it is "very" windy at Camp Perry. There are places where shooting long distance is easier because there's a lot less wind. The rifles work the same. It just requires less skill I guess.