Does concentricity matter ?

[JFrank]

I thought you all might be interested to watch this video.

Testing loaded round runout from .003" to .045" at 1000yds.

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Hopefully it open open up.

 

[Varminterror]

I shared that one last month or two on FB, it’s actually really remarkable. The damage he did to those rounds, then still shooting sub-MOA with them is phenomenal. And exceptionally indicative that nearly nobody, if not NOBODY really needs to be spending/wasting time rolling rounds on any concentricity gauge.

 

[JFrank]

I’ve shot some rounds that I knew were out but never as extreme as John. Never seeing a difference on paper I sold my Hornday gage rather then investing in a higher quality unit to check something that didn’t improve accuracy in the long range game. Some short range guys have a different view and I can’t speak for that discipline.

 

[Blue68f100]

A tight chamber would straighten the round back out. He did not run a test to see how much. I know from a test I did by accident it moved my POI 3" at 300 yrds. This is the difference of feeding off a magazine vs bob sled in my AR-10, 6.5 CM.

 

[jmorris]

FWIW the first time I discovered that it didn’t seem to matter with a combination. I checked them once then loaded them into the rifle, closed the action, opened it back up and checked them again. The barrel had “fixed” them. So that’s not really shooting crooked bullets at that point.

Did John test for that?

 

[zeke]

Am going out on a limb and guess the author was not using a standard rifle in the test, but custom rifle for that accurate shooting at a 1000 yds? If concentricity didn't matter, these custom rifles wouldn't concentrate so much effort on it. Gonna agree with the 2 posts above this, as without testing all the rounds for concentricity before and after chambering, the test is questionable at best. An expensive custom made rifle may substitute for a lot handloading practices used in the past, as may the increased precision of commonly manufactured rifles made today.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Did John test for that?

Pretty moot point. Whether or not concentricity makes a difference or the rifle is straightening crooked rounds, the point is that we don't need to be measuring for it....if we're not long-distance shooters, the barrel quality may not matter and if we are, we've probably long ago purchased a quality barrel. Anyone want to buy my Hornady gauge?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The only concentricity concern I have is that the resized cartridge is concentric and that’s as a double check against my case life and die. I have found that as cases work harden - even after a heat destress - I will sometimes need to turn the case and run it through the die to get the neck and shoulder to line up with the base. That is a good clue I’m about to have to retire that case.

Is it absolute? No. Will it work for you just because it works for me? No. But I’m also not a big paper hunter. I find it cooks up a might bit dry.

 

[Walkalong]

I would argue that at 1K the effect of not being concentric is lost in all the other noise, but that in a pure Benchrest rifle at 100/200 yards you could demonstrate the difference.

 

[jmorris]

Pretty moot point. Whether or not concentricity makes a difference or the rifle is straightening crooked rounds, the point is that we don't need to be measuring for it.

...If the rifle corrects the ammunition.

I’ll admit to spending more time with the tools in the process development phase than in production and if I can get the rifle to help further reduce variation, all the better.

 

[Varminterror]

in a pure Benchrest rifle at 100/200 yards you could demonstrate the difference.

But maybe the most important part of this discussion: Has anyone demonstrated the difference?

"COULD" isn't definitive - I've never jumped off of a 50 story building, but it's possible that I "could" survive... I know a LOT of us have neck turned, straightened or culled rounds for run out, because we all believe it "SHOULD" make a difference, and we believed that it "WOULD" make a difference.

But I'm intrigued to learn if anyone has proven that it demonstrably and definitively "DOES" make a difference.

 

[JFrank]

I would argue that at 1K the effect of not being concentric is lost in all the other noise, but that in a pure Benchrest rifle at 100/200 yards you could demonstrate the difference.

IRCC Brian from aka Witchdoctor has done some short range testing in the subject. Myself I’m not willing to burn through high volume rounds to acquire a large sample size to make a video to satisfy others that could test for themselves.

 

[zeke]

Am old fashioned, and my concentricity "gage" is rolling a finished round on a flat, hard and level surface. If i see the bullet wobbling at all, am wanting to know why and how to fix it.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

IRCC Brian from aka Witchdoctor has done some short range testing in the subject.

I guess my question is: Is this a handloading/reloading topic or a competitive shooting topic? I ask because it seems pretty obvious extremely few handloaders need to be aware of the issue and only those who compete will be concerned. If you’re an average paper puncher or sustenance hunter it’s not even on your radar.

Edit: correction - paper puncher not hunter.

 

[JFrank]

John did mention that this was fun test

Am going out on a limb and guess the author was not using a standard rifle in the test, but custom rifle for that accurate shooting at a 1000 yds? If concentricity didn't matter, these custom rifles wouldn't concentrate so much effort on it. Gonna agree with the 2 posts above this, as without testing all the rounds for concentricity before and after chambering, the test is questionable at best. An expensive custom made rifle may substitute for a lot handloading practices used in the past, as may the increased precision of commonly manufactured rifles made today.

Did you watch the Video ?

 

[Varminterror]

The barrel had “fixed” them. So that’s not really shooting crooked bullets at that point.

Did John test for that?

Did you watch the video? Quite clearly, he states in the video that the ammo is too bent to be chambered freely, so it's obvious that the rifle is straightening the ammo...

But here folks are, arguing against their own eyes, that this is kind of rebuttal in any way meaningful... If a shooter can feed ammo which is SO bent that it can't even be chambered and still shoot sub-moa at 1,000 yards, it's pretty obvious some hunter in Ohio doesn't need to give a damn about concentricity for his pappy's 30-06 he shoots 10 rounds per year....

Am going out on a limb and guess the author was not using a standard rifle in the test, but custom rifle for that accurate shooting at a 1000 yds?

Same, same... It's moot. Rifles are rifles. Better barrels shoot smaller than lesser barrels, but it's a lame excuse to say, "well that might work for a custom barrel, but factory rifles need ________" to justify whatever process the factory barrel shooter started doing because they heard at one point that custom rifle competitors used to do...

 

[JFrank]

I guess my question is: Is this a handloading/reloading topic or a competitive shooting topic? I ask because it seems pretty obvious extremely few handloaders need to be aware of the issue and only those who compete will be concerned. If you’re an average paper hunter or sustenance hunter it’s not even on your radar.

Only a hand loader would have need for these tools, ime a fella shooting factory ammo has no need and a competitive shooter tests for him or herself.

 

[Varminterror]

If i see the bullet wobbling at all, am wanting to know why and how to fix it.

This assumes that this runout is indicative of being "broken". Most evidence proves it's not.

 

[Varminterror]

I guess my question is: Is this a handloading/reloading topic or a competitive shooting topic? I ask because it seems pretty obvious extremely few handloaders need to be aware of the issue and only those who compete will be concerned. If you’re an average paper hunter or sustenance hunter it’s not even on your radar.

But to the contrary - most competitive shooters, like myself, @JFrank, @Walkalong, are aware we don't need to concentricity sort our ammo, let alone try to worry about fixing ammo eccentricity or nonaxiality...

Alternatively, we see a lot more folks which are NOT competitors which try to defend their "need" for concentricity sorting or fixing ammo... and then they'll say things online which dismiss what they see with their own eyes, that some AR or some factory rifle for some reason MUST benefit more from concentricity sorting of ammo than would a more accurate rifle... Most competitive folks will KNOW, it's actually really easy to make rifles shoot small - smaller than most folks worrying about weight sorting brass or neck turning or concentricity testing... So we try to pass on the knowledge that these particular 'knobs' don't actually do anything of import, but folks which haven't taken the time to test the hypotheses insist on believing it all anyway...

 

[JFrank]

If your into Brian Z ( a short range guy from Seattle) he likes making vids and burning rounds. And Data .. ( I haven’t actually watched this video so make up your own mind here)

Effects of Bullet Run Out: Part 1 Into the Lands

The purpose of this video is to display data comparing precision among bullets with various degrees of run out. The bullet was placed .004" into the lands fo...

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[JFrank]

I will also point out that confidence in one’s equipment plays a part in competitive shooting, therefore if checking consentricy instills confidence then by all means continue the deed. I also feel that this is a topic worthy of discussion, encouraging those who haven’t tested to perhaps even borrow a gage and check a few rounds and the effects on paper at whatever distance suits the shooter. It’s certainly a good way to check one’s reloading practices and dies.

 

[Nature Boy]

I solved any concentricity issues at the press, which negated the need to check for it or worry about it.

After watching the video I worry about it even less.

 

[Walkalong]

I solved any concentricity issues at the press, which negated the need to check for it or worry about it.

After watching the video I worry about it even less.

Yep, use equipment that minimizes run out, then check to make sure it’s still good, then worry about the things that cost you points, like wind, finishing the stage, etc. So many things that cost me points in a PRS match that I need to worry about, but it never occurs to me on a missed target or missed opportunity that concentricity was/is the issue. It isn’t.

That said, I like straight ammo, and I want it under .001 run out, but not every round I load for PRS is, and I know it going in. Doesn’t worry me.

My Benchrest ammo was by gosh straight, and if I take it up again, I’ll do the same. I’ve seen videos about tests on concentricity making a difference at close range accuracy by big time shooters that I respect. I also simply think it makes sense. We made ammo to fit tight necked chambers so tight they may help start ammo straight, and that’s a large part of the reason for tight necked chambers with necks turned to fit very closely.

And, as posted, it makes me all warm and fuzzy to not have “sloppy” ammo, so I’ll continue to make sure my match ammo straight enough to please me.

 

[zeke]

Did you watch the video? Quite clearly, he states in the video that the ammo is too bent to be chambered freely, so it's obvious that the rifle is straightening the ammo...

But here folks are, arguing against their own eyes, that this is kind of rebuttal in any way meaningful... If a shooter can feed ammo which is SO bent that it can't even be chambered and still shoot sub-moa at 1,000 yards, it's pretty obvious some hunter in Ohio doesn't need to give a damn about concentricity for his pappy's 30-06 he shoots 10 rounds per year....



Same, same... It's moot. Rifles are rifles. Better barrels shoot smaller than lesser barrels, but it's a lame excuse to say, "well that might work for a custom barrel, but factory rifles need ________" to justify whatever process the factory barrel shooter started doing because they heard at one point that custom rifle competitors used to do...

Ahh didn't the video indicate that his rifle straightened out the severely out of concentric round? Did he indicate how much the round was straightened out? Whether it fed or not appears irrelevant. The only thing obvious is that the results were in his rifle, and not really relevant to "pappy's 30-06", and he prefers to have .003 runout or less? The video indicates he is indeed concerned about runout. What would matter more is how much runout to be concerned about. Am alos guessing he is using a F class rifle?

The second video posted details a loading procedure that minimizes runout, and his max runout tested is .006 compared to .003 or so? .006 ain't much for runout, and his loading procedure indicates he is indeed concerned about runout. If someone has a loading procedure proven to minimise runout, they may well be satisfied not to check it each time.

 

[JFrank]

Cool that you took the time to watch John and Brian’s videos,
Q) If a shooter subscribes to concentricity effecting the target does he also subscribe to in bore yaw ?