Does having a CHL help you overcome the Bystander Effect?

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boredelmo

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The background on the Bystander Effect here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_intervention

"People may also assume that other bystanders may be more qualified to help, such as being a doctor or police officer, and their intervention would thus be unneeded. "

Assuming you are willing to render aid to prevent a crime from happening (rape/murder) but are in an environment filled with many people (restaurant), would you automatically assume you are the most qualified?

Have you ever considered the bystander effect? Do you think you are stricken by it? Since you have gotten your CHL have you been able to overcome it?

Just some food for thought.
 
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

I know I'm not sticken by the bystander effect. I've jumped in to help without thinking before. This isn't saying that I'm a good man, its just saying that I've just tried to do what is right to me. Certain situations just scream that someone needs help. Others, are confusing, just too hard to tell.

I live just like a lot of people do, there are a lot of gray areas. I've found that not everything is simply black or white.

There are those out there that justify not getting involved because they don't want to risk thier livelihoods or welfare. I understand. For me thats just not an option. I do have to look at myself in the mirror every morning. I have to be able to look my loved ones in the eye. I will never be so wealthy that I won't help someone being victimized.

As I tell people I know, I've dones stupid things in the past, and I'm confident I'll do stupid things in the future.

Sometimes all it takes is one person to step in to instigate others to help. People are waiting to be led. Have someone else tell them what they should be doing.
 
I like that quote Mandirigma! Heres my equivalent:

"Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men." - Consignor from The Boondock Saints
 
Both quotes are the same message. Oddly enough, each speaks to different people. One that I like is:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled, is convincing the world he didn't exist." - Verbal Kent, The Usual Suspects

Same idea in all three if you think about it. The more society ignores, the worse it will get. Someone can think it wont happen to them, but you can bet your arse I am preparing for when it happens to me. That's not pariona, it's realism.
 
I do not think that merely carrying a gun makes me more or less likely to render aid to someone who needs it. Now, the training I have taken has helped me to be more alert in public, and THAT may make me more AWARE of someone being in need of aid.

HOWEVER - I do sometimes fear that subconsciously I may be LESS likely to render aid to a stranger - out of my own fear of prosecution if I act incorrectly. I am just being honest - the thought has crossed my mind many times. It's not always 100% obvious who the "bad guy" it ... and people have called it wrong before. When you employ a weapon, there is no going back. If you are wrong, you're going to prison.

I think that our society has created this fear in people. They (we all know who "they" are) don't WANT us to help one another. We're taught from birth to not help people - to leave it to "professionals". "Don't resist" applies to defending yourself and to aiding individuals as well. That's the message society tends to teach. Some parents try to teach otherwise, most do not.

Now, before the flames begin - I certainly HOPE I do the right thing and provide whatever assistence a stranger needs, up to and including using my weapon. But I don't KNOW that I will. It's never happened to me.

However, I think that if most of us are honest, we'll all say that we don't KNOW what we'd do. We know what we'd LIKE to do or what we think we SHOULD do ... but unless you've ever been in such a situation, you just cannot honestly know.

I know some folks think that they are armed and are a force to be reckoned with (not picking on anyone in this thread, just generalizing.) We've all read those posts in the past.

I think all any of us can hope for is that when the SHTF that we do the "right" things, regardless of what that involves. But I honestly do not think that having a weapon influences me to be more proactive than I normally would be in rendering aid. I think some extra caution is human nature when you are talking about killing someone on another's behalf. When you are the victim, it's easy to know who the "bad guy" is and you know everything that occured up to that point.
 
All of what you said made sense. But I look at it this way: I am willing to go through legal paperwork, interrogation, and even wrongful jail time to stop someone from being killed or raped. Yes, i take rape as serious as murder. And yes, there is just that extra bit of extra precaution.

Thats what i need to see in my mirror.
 
The problem is not a lack of good people, nor is it a lack of good will. What's all screwed up is the fact that in today's society you are very likely to be punished one way or the other for stepping in and doing what is morally right.

As for the topic of discussion I would dare say that from a LEGAL point of view you are safer intervening with out a CCW that with one. In the same fasion if you are a doctor and assist a wounded person on the street, and something or better yet anything goes wrong you can be very sure that you will be facing a law suit. I know that in some places there are laws that limit the liability of a MD when assisting a stranger, but should there even be a need for such laws to exist? It seems that the more qualified you are to help, the more the law system make you hesitate from stepping in. You now need a law to protect you when doing something that is right. That's how messed up our world is :banghead:
 
However, I think that if most of us are honest, we'll all say that we don't KNOW what we'd do. We know what we'd LIKE to do or what we think we SHOULD do ... but unless you've ever been in such a situation, you just cannot honestly know.
Click to expand...
Nice quote for all the keyboard commandos that would do this and that without having ever actually done any of it. +1
People are waiting to be led.
Click to expand...
They really are. I've been in many non-critical situations before where nothing would have happened unless I walked out in front of the crowd and proposed some soft of a plan. Then boom, I'm the leader and everyone wants to help. I might have been the least qualified leader of said groups but I was the one that nudged the crowd. Makes no sense to me. I earned somewhat of a leadership position throughout middle and high school (drumline captain, I know, all of the authority in the world :cool: ) and I just assumed that people stepped up when called upon. I've learned that is not the case at all. Most people will stand there and watch without ever considering helping. It drives me crazy that people want to just "get by" in life without much hassle or drama. That is what life is to me, hassle and drama, we might as well try to help each other out while we're here. Sorry about straying.

None of that has anything to do with whether I carry or not. I had the same "M.O." before I even owned a gun. I just feel a little more prepared for the scarier situations nowadays. If it were a rape (or attempted rape) in progress, I think I'd hunt that SOB down and empty the mag into his stomach. I know that might not be the nicest way to put it but that is a touchy subject for me. It is better justice to have the "favor returned" in jail for the rest of his life. I don't think I could have the forethought and restraint at that point. I think I'd lose it.
My short answer is no, I don't think a CHL changes your attitude about helping others, it just outfits you a little better for it. IMHO.
 
Assuming you are willing to render aid to prevent a crime from happening (rape/murder) but are in an environment filled with many people (restaurant), would you automatically assume you are the most qualified?
Click to expand...

Yes. I probably aren't the most qualified but I would assume I am until someone else steps up and shows any difference.

This works even in non-crime situations, like a first-aid situation. If you respond first you are the most qualified just by nature of responding. Then if a doctor happens to be around or EMT shows up later via emergency vehicle, they become the most qualified. In some cases they will take over and move you out of the way, in others they will tell you to keep doing what you're doing.

Since you have gotten your CHL have you been able to overcome it?
Click to expand...

Never had it. Proved it many times, but nothing that involved a gun. Car crashes, people passing out in grocery stores, etc etc. Either I never had it or it was taught out of me during Boy Scouts many years ago.
 
CHL isn't enough.

Having and being properly trained to use a handgun prepares you for a rather limited set of circumstances. Remember that a handgun is a weapon and use of force is only (legally) applicable in certain situations. I'm not minimizing CCW, I do myself because these these situations and circumstances happen daily to someone, hopefully not one of us.

Just as your CCW training prepares you to deal with a given problem, so does learning "stuff" to get you through life. Got a family? Learn first aid and CPR. You may be the one to help them or the stranger in the crowd. I've done it with both. Even a rudimentary knowledge of a wide variety of skills will put you well beyond the other 85% of the population.

Confidence doesn't come with carrying a gun, confidence comes with being a well rounded and capable person, able to hadle a variety of situations. People who rush in because they have a gun tend to die rather quickly. People who rush in because they are confident in themselves and their abilities tend to stick around a while.
 
Thanks.

I appreciate the compliment. We always remind one another that a gun is a tool, not a magic wand.

Some of the most confident and successful people I know are average at most things they do. However, they have a basic knowledge of so many blasted topics and skills that they seem like superheros when everybody around them is at a loss for what to do. Like R.A.H. said, "Specialization is for insects."
 
I, hopefully like others, have played all those different scenarios in my head many time over. I know what I think I would do in each circumstance, but you truly never know until that situation happens. I will give ya a few instances when it came down to it and what i did.
The first one had to do with a car wreck. I was in college and was driving home on the turnpike. A head on crash had just taken place and I was one of a couple people first on scene. One vehicle was still on the road, but the doors were crushed and his car caught fire from the fuel line. I didn't even think about the dangers when i got my extinguisher and got in there to put out the flames. The other happened when i was at a hockey game. I saw two different fans heckling each other when the female slapped the male. I know she was in the wrong, but as soon as the guy started to go after her I had to step in and stop it. I was originally part of the equation, but i felt that it would have escalated to a bad level. Luckily the guy stepped down and left the scene, but i didn't know that at the time. The third one i did the stupid thing. It was in Iraq. I had been there a very short time and it was easy to see. You train about what to do when taking fire (direct or indirect) over and over and it seems ingrained into your brain. Well, the first time I took rocket fire i forgot all that. This so happened in our LSA whe we were about to go to sleep. a couple rounds came in the first hit about 20feet from my hooch. Instead of taking cover in our 'duck and cover' bunkers, I and a few others heard that one didn't go off so we break out of lights and go trying to find it. Why we did that i don't know i think it was some type of shock or something. I woke up when the QRF got there and talked some sence into us. (he was very persuasive).
These a just a couple instances of what-would-I-do's. I think after the latter event I don't think that will happen again. I know it didn't anytime I had rounds coming my way. I am just thankful that night that the Lord above was looking after my ignorant self.

Hopefully this didn't bore you guys too much. I suck at story telling.
 
MMike87 said
HOWEVER - I do sometimes fear that subconsciously I may be LESS likely to render aid to a stranger - out of my own fear of prosecution if I act incorrectly. I am just being honest - the thought has crossed my mind many times. It's not always 100% obvious who the "bad guy" it ... and people have called it wrong before. When you employ a weapon, there is no going back. If you are wrong, you're going to prison.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this to some extent. Ohio law requires that you prove you are not at fault for creating the situation and that you were not the first aggressor/ initiator or escalated the confrontation. If this is the case you cannot claim self-defense.

This same rule of law applies to the defense of others, if you shoot an attacker to protect another who created the situation or was the first aggressor, you will not be able to provide an affirmative defense for your action.

The reality is, unless you are completely knowledgeable of all the facts in a violent confrontation, you risk prosecution.

An example could be:

You walk out of the grocery store and see a man on top of a woman with a knife in his hand, and she is screaming for help at the top of her lungs and bleeding from the face!

You draw your weapon and shoot the guy before he stabs her.

Come to find out, he was shopping and had just left the store when she approached him and stabbed him first, he just wrestled the knife away from her, but in the process it required a couple punches to take the gas out of her… jilted crazy ex-girlfriend!

Scary stuff.
 
MMike87, I must disagree with you about being taught from birth not to help others because my whole family was taught just the opposite and I know plenty of others who were taught the same. Personally I feel anyone who carries concealed should be as willing to draw in defense of a strange as they would be in defense of their family.

RPFrye, I agree with you completely; just because you draw the gun doesn't mean you have to use it, you must be WILLING to use it, IF NECESSARY. In your scenario ONLY if the person with the knife either didn't drop it when ordered too and made a move to stab the person under him would I shoot.
 
Archer.... He is holding the knife above his head to keep it out of her reach, she is screaming for help as loud as she can and frantically grabbing for the knife, bleeding from the face. He is wounded from a knife stab and in a struggle for his life, in his own bubble of self defense... and cannot hear your commands to drop the knife, his sole focus is on the situation he is in ....

Do you shoot?
 
I have absolutely no intention of drawing my gun in defense of a stranger. If there is a bad situation and I/we can quickly leave without physical harm to me or my family, that is exactly what I'm going to do. It's their tough luck that something is happening to them, and maybe they should have gotten their CHL so they could have protected themselves against the exact thing that is happening. I can't save everyone in the world from environmental nasties and bad guys. All the problems in the world are NOT MY PROBLEM. I also would not shoot someone in a case of rape. Rape is not someone with their life in mortal danger. Yes ...Rape is morally wrong and bad, but forced sexual intercourse is NOT life threatening. 99.9% of rape victims definitely get violated, but they do not get shot, stabbed or killed. A prosecutor will put you in prison forever based on that premise. What I WILL do is call 911 and give the police the absolute best description of people and automobiles so thay have a better chance of catching the criminal. I would also follow bad guys in an automobile to give police good info on their direction of travel. I'm also not against yelling or screaming at them to make them the center of attention so they have second thoughts and forego doing what ever they were planning. Criminals do not like tons of witnesses looking at them. The only time my pistol will come out is when Me and my family are in danger of serious physical harm, or any life threatening circumstances. As for the strangers of the world .... maybe they shouldn't have been so much against guns and self defense .... It's their decision .... and they'll need to deal with the consequences the best that they can. I haven't been hired by anyone to be their personal body guard or their store and property security officer.
Ohio Rusty
 
Having a weapon does not solve the problem of knowing exactly what is going on. Things may not be as they first appear.
 
ALTERNATIVELY

...A Real Life Story - 3-5-07

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070305/NEWS/703050350

___________________________________________________

As customers watched in horror Sunday afternoon, a man stabbed a woman and attempted to set her on fire in the parking lot of a Jackson store, witnesses said.

The attack was stopped by a passer-by, who held the man at gunpoint until police arrived, witnesses said.

The suspect, Henry Watson, 42, was arrested and is expected to face aggravated assault charges, Jackson Police Department Cmdr. Lee Vance said. Watson's wife, Gracie Watson, 42, was transported to the University of Mississippi Medical center, where she was listed in good condition.

"It wasn't five minutes from when she had left my line when I heard a scream outside," said Theresa Stuckey, a cashier at the Family Dollar at 516 Nakoma Drive in Jackson. "I looked out, and (the attacker) was on top of her stabbing her, and stabbing her and stabbing her.

"She was screaming, 'Help, he's trying to kill me!' She was rolling on the ground, trying to get out of the way, but he kept stabbing her. He stabbed her about 20 times in the neck, back and arms."

As the attack continued, people were yelling at the man to stop and honking their horns, Stuckey said. She said she called 911.
"He was just standing over her hacking away," said Dolly Baker, who had just left the Save-A-Lot store next door when she saw the attack.

Baker said she watched the man pour gasoline on the victim then try to strike a match.

"He was literally trying to kill that lady in broad daylight," she said.

Baker said a passer-by stopped the attack.

"He told the man, 'Stop, or I'm going to shoot. And if you run, I'm going to kill you,' " Baker said.

The man held Watson at bay until police arrived at the scene.

"Right now, all we know is that (Watson) attacked his wife. For what reason, we don't know," Jackson Police Department Sgt. Eric Smith said.

Police said they are looking for the passer-by who stopped the attack and would like to talk to him but don't know who he is or where he went.

The incident occurred about 3:50 p.m.

Smith said he did not know exactly how many times Gracie Watson was stabbed but said it was more than 10 times.
 
Ohio Rusty, have you ever known a rape victim??? I have a dear friend of mine who was raped when she was 18, she is now 28. If you only knew how a rape affects a person, even 10 years later I don't think you could just let someone rape another. I would all thats in my power to stop a man from raping a woman. That is one of the lowest things a man could ever do and I don't see how anyone could walk away from it. I am not saying I am trying to be some hero or vigilanty, but if I have taken the steps to arm myself legally or not, then i sure as heck will use it when need be.
There was an oath that some of us have taken while in the service. (you might have I don't know). "I will defend against enemies, foreign and domestic", as far as I am concerned if someone is a threat to the general population then I will help them. Yeah, yeah...I sound a little cheesey with it, but thats just my personal feelings.
Long story short, I don't think you would feel the same if you personally knew someone who was raped and actually shared with you how it has affected them.:( Not trying to attack ya, just want to understand your point of view.
You would be amazed at how insecure they feel out in the darkness.
 
My wife was sexually assaulted in her teens. I will not stand by and let anyone do that to another human being. You can stand around all you want, but I have to look at myself in the mirror every day.
 
I'm closing this one before it turns into another 150 post argument about individual morals and ethics. Fortunately this is a problem that will be a hypothetical situation for the great majority of people.

The decision to intervene or not is one that everyone here must make on their own. Anyone confronted with that situation will have to weigh their perception of what's actually happening with their own skill level and their knowledge of the local laws dealing with such things. No one on an internet forum can make that decision for them.

Jeff
 
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