Does higher velocity give better groupings?

[jediagh]

Testing the following in my .30 carbine (auto-ordnance paratrooper replica)

WIN 296 @ 14gr with 110gr FMJ
vs
WIN 296 @ 14.5gr with 110gr FMJ

On the 25 yard range when shooting from bench rest:

At 14gr the rounds are 3" too high and the groupings of 3 shoots are about 1" apart.

At 14grs the rounds ate 1.5-2.5" to high and the grouping of 3 shoots are 1/4 to 1/2 apart.

On the shooting high issue I know what I need to do. (Ie. raise the front sight by .06 of an inch) but is the high velocity giving better groupings? Is that something I should expect. Max for this powder is 15gr and at 14.5 it feels a lot different than 14g Not comfortable going over 14.5 with this powder as it's already snappy not a lot but some.

Also I see more smoke when shooting at the 14 then the 14.5. Actually I don't see any smoke at the 14.5 level. Hum wonder if I should try 14.75 but again not real sure I want to.

Thanks

 

[danthearmyman]

There isn't a co-relation between the velocity, and the accuracy. You'll find a sweet spot that a certain bullet in that certain rifle likes to be at for speed. Go beyond, or under, and the groups will open up.

I have a rem 700 in 223 that likes my 40 grain varmint killers at pretty fast speeds, but the same bullet in my AR has to be throttled back to about half pace.

 

[Grumulkin]

It's pretty usual for group sizes to tighten as a load is increased and then they start to widen again. In a good strong bolt gun I'd probably push a load until the groups started opening up again but I'm not so aggressive in loading an autoloader.

As for smoke coming out of the barrel; that is probably a sign of a lowish pressure load.

Why are you shooting at 25 yards? I would think you would want to be sighted in for a bit longer range. I wouldn't mess around with a new front sight until you know how it shoots at 50 or 100 yards. Also, acceptable groups at 25 yards in no way guarantee acceptable groups at 50 or 100 yards.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Not always. I worked up a load for my .35Rem that is very accurate, roughly half inch groups at 100. I haven't chronoed the loads but they are probably in the ball park of 1900-2000 FPS. Which is considered a rather slow speed for that caliber/powder/bullet mix.

 

[Shadow 7D]

NO
there's a sweat spot
CONSISTENCY is what most will say,
but there is a sweet spot, usually not even in the 'max' range (moderate is usually best in most rifles)

If you look at the whole system and the forces etc.
the load that has the bullet leaving the barrel at about the same vibration/place etc. is what's going to give the most accurate (rifle wise) then you have the bullets and the #1 problem with accuracy...

THE SHOOTER

 

[gamestalker]

There are several variables to that. Some powders don't do well when loaded up to max, some firearms simply don't shoot well at higher velocities.

I'm one of those that is constantly chasing high velocity and have had many successful top velocity loads that were very accurate. I always use slow burning powders as per application, and I almost always end up with a work up that takes me to max, or some where in that vicinity. One of my favorite straight walled magnum powders is 296 / H110 and it has almost always produced very accurate performance, while maintaining top end velocities. And the bullet and powder manufacturer's will usually list the "most accurate load tested" and it is almost always one of the higher velocity loads, and it will be a slow burning powder that was used. So take it for what it's worth and do some testing of your own. Just remember to be safe, don't ever just start at a maximum published load without first performing a reasonable work up procedure, unless your name is Clark, ha, ha.

GS

 

[jediagh]

@Grumulkin
was shooting at the 25 yard because I just shoot the appleseed targets designed for the 25 yard range. I have shoot the rifle at the 100 yard range with commercial ammo and have gotten the same results of it shooting too high. The results on the 25 yard minics those on the 100 yard as well. =/

This is my 2nd time shooting the rifle (it's new to me) and only the 2nd set of reloads I have done for it so I'm still learning and new to it all.

The data I collectes and this article:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=4147.0;wap2
comes out to raising the front sight by .06" = 1.52mm which is a very small amount and I'm not sure it's worth it at this time. Doing the JB Weld on it might be more of a PITB then will fix the issue.

I think I'll try 14.6, 14.7 and 14.8 reloads on the 25 and 100 to see if that helps or not before I go and raise the front sight. Like I said at the 14gr and 14.5gr the shoots are all high by about the same amount. The .30 carbine is know to have these issues of shooting high. **sigh**

 

[Walkalong]

NO
there's a sweat spot
CONSISTENCY is what most will say,
but there is a sweet spot,

In rifles there will be more than one "sweet spot" as you progress from slow to fast. Pick one you like that is at or under max and go with it. Max can be a sweet spot, or not. Start low, work up and find those sweet spots. That is part of the fun of a new rifle. I have been doing that with a .308 recently, and I believe I have found what I am looking for, although I may tweak up and down .1 Gr to see how that does.

 

[jrdavidson]

Sweet Spots

I loaded W296 in 10 round batches at 13.8 through 15.0 grains in .1 grain increments using FMJ and 1.670" OAL. I found 2 "sweet spots" for my M1 carbine, at 13.8 and again at 14.2. Everything else opened up. None of the loads seem overpowered, but as the powder load climbed, so did the group vertically.

I had expected a slow increase in accuracy up to a point, but was surprised at the pattern I got. I shot from a bag rest, using the standard 25 yards Carbine BZO target for evaluation.

13.8 was clearly underpowered (it shot low) but gave the best groupat just over 1.5"! The next best group was 14.2 which seemed to be adequately powered (it remained in the black semicircle on the 25yard BZO target).

If I remember correctly, 14.2 gave me about 1.75" groups at 25 yards, which is more than serviceable for any M1 Carbine, since the design is not known for accuracy. All other groups opened up, and with more powder, climbed up the target progressively. So I decided to stick with 14.2 gr.

It was a noticeable improvement over Aguila commercial which shot low but had a decent just over 2" group.

Your Carbine will no doubt show you its own preferences.

 

[jediagh]

@jrdavidson
I initially loaded 14gr, 14.1, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4 and 14.5 to test functionally (5 rds each) and they all worked. Those were my 1st reloads for the rifle (ever). Decided that 14.1-14.4 I could not feel the difference in recoil so I went with 14 and 14.5 for testing accuracy.

From the looks of it it seems I need to go back and load more at each of those to test now for accuracy. **SIGH** All I want to do it just shoot the Appleseed targets but now I'm seeing that I need to figure out what loads will work best on this rifle.

 

[FROGO207]

Remember you are doing all this for the fun of it.

 

[jediagh]

yyyeeeeaaaaahhhhhh right!
reload does not equal fun for rifle casings but does equal less money/ LOL

 

[Walkalong]

Don't let it frustrate you, let it be fun. It can be if you let it.

 

[HighExpert]

This info applies mainly to handguns, but a .30 carbine is real close to a handgun with a longer barrel. As you increase velocity the gun will shoot lower as the recoil doesn't have as much time to raise the barrel before the bullet leaves it. I have never found a weapon that will shoot its most consistently and accurately at full throttle. Previous respondents are correct that every weapon has a sweet spot for accuracy and that is one of the reasons for reloading so we can taylor our ammo to the weapon. A lot of military weapons will shoot high at closer ranges due the fact that they were designed to shoot at least 100 and usually 200+ yards. The .30 carbine was basically a rifle substitute for rear guard troops who had trouble shooting a handgun and who fervently hoped they would never need it anyway. That said, it is a very cool little gun that is lots of fun to shoot and load for. I would stop worrying about the impact point and start aiming at the bottom of the black as one would do in bullseye competition and I think you will be real close to on the money. Good shooting to you. P.S. I am jealous because I missed out on a real gem of an Inland .30 a few years ago and still am smarting from the experience.

 

[jeepmor]

I go for accuracy. And nearly all my accurate loads come at about 75-85% of max listed loading. Beyond that, my groups usually open up.

 

[jrdavidson]

@jrdavidson
I initially loaded 14gr, 14.1, 14.2, 14.3, 14.4 and 14.5 to test functionally (5 rds each) and they all worked. Those were my 1st reloads for the rifle (ever). Decided that 14.1-14.4 I could not feel the difference in recoil so I went with 14 and 14.5 for testing accuracy.

From the looks of it it seems I need to go back and load more at each of those to test now for accuracy. **SIGH** All I want to do it just shoot the Appleseed targets but now I'm seeing that I need to figure out what loads will work best on this rifle.

Iterating and closing in on the best load for your rifle can be fun, but it does takes deliberate effort, and time if you get to the range infrequently. Here's a useful tool to help measure groups consistently:

http://blog.robballen.com/apps/SGA/

 

[Hondo 60]

danthearmyman has it right

There is no correlation between velocity & accuracy.
Now if you have a poor shooting load, it's possible that by adding more powder it may be better.
But it could also be worse.

Sorry, but there's no easy answer.