Does IDPA have to be prescriptive

[hube1236]

Another thread here comparred the costs of starting IPSG or IDPA. The prevalent tone is that IPSG can be more fun if it wasn't for the people, and IDPA could be more fun if it flowed a little better.

I shoot primarily IDPA, but have been exposed to IPSG, the people were generally nice, but what I liked is the freestyle shoot them as you see them concept.

At the next IDPA match, I am walking an expert through a course of fire, thinking to myself that this guy ought to have picked up the strategy from reading the book COF and watching the first guy go.

Novices are a different story, but I've been traveling to more matches recently and found that everybody is trying to be helpful in explaining the stage, and over explaining the stage, as in this would really be a good time to reload so you don't cross... but few shooters interpret the COF and go with their equipment. If they violate the rules, then procedural- but I do not think that you have to point out rules at a match for them to watch out for while executing the stage.

Rule book reads, no individual walk throughs. My solution would be to squad walk through- first shooter on the line gets to ask questions, after that if they "don't get it" send them to the back of the line.

The only place this really does not work as far as completely free style is prescribing reloads, but this can either be accomplished by initially short loading or make a COF so that the shooter has to reload to get through an exposed run.

At a recent informal match, I pushed the envelope and did a tac reload on the move over open ground. My gun technically was not empty, it was not full per the rules either. I argued my case, they argued theirs. I still feel that the only purpose of a tac reload is on the move in open ground. I shaved 4 seconds off my time- I took a huge penalty in points- I rushed myself to get to that point as I was trying to push the rules for the sake of argument. I am now trying to come up with my own strategy and will try to cut the SO off if he starts getting too nitty gritty.

What do you think. Please don't turn this into an IPSG V IDPA thing. If you have an axe to grind with IDPA, start your own thread!

 

[Joe D]

First of all the SO runs the stage not you. If you tried to "cut the SO off" at most of the matches I shoot you would be warned once, then sent home if you continued.
It is IPSC not IPSG. In the U.S. it is actually USPSA.
All IDPA reloads are to be done from cover. You should have been given a 3 sec. penality. If you continued to do this type of reload a 20 sec. FTD penality should be awarded.
I shoot both and find 99% of the shooters in IDPA and USPSA to be very nice and helpful. Both have their good and bad things. If you do not like IDPA shoot IPSC.
I have shot many State Championship Matches and the IDPA Nationals. I do not have a problem with the way the stages are explained. Everyone gets an explanation at the start of the stage. If I happened to be the first shooter on a stage and did not fully understand the stage the SOs always answered any question I might have before I shot.

 

[Eskimo Jim]

Hube,
I'm with Joe to a point.

The IDPA matches that I have been to followed this procedure for three courses of fire. We were squadded up into three groups.

When each group got to the stage, the SO would give a walk through so that each person was told of what to do. If someone joined the squad late, they were put to the bottom of the shooting order so that they could see the stage run and talk to others about the stage requirements.

The rules to IDPA aren't that difficult in regards to tactics or firearms for that matter.

I don't have a problem with doing a tactical reload while moving because removing the empty magazine didn't decrease your ammunition supply at all. If it were up to me, I might allow a competitor to do a tactical reload on the move if they were in any class except Revolver.

The other perspective on this subject might be that 1) you are vulnerable during any kind of reload so you should use hard cover to protect yourself during the reload 2) the "Bad Guys" shouldn't see you reloading so that you should reload behind hard cover or behind conealment. I think that those are both valid points to requiring all reloads to be performed behind cover.

Please remember a couple things about IDPA and USPSA, they are games. Games have rules that are to be followed for several reasons. To make the game fair to all participants and to add challenge to reaching the objective of the game. Also, Safety Officers/referees are human and interpret the rules from their perspective. At the end of the day, it is just a game.

I'd suggest writing to IDPA headquarters and asking them for an interpretation of the rules only after you thoroughly re-read the rules of the game a couple of times. They might clarify it for you.

In the end though participating is up to you. If you don't like the rules of a game, play a different game.

Good luck.

-Jim

 

[Joe D]

Jim, we really should not try to change the rules by allowing a person to do a tactical reload while on the move. As you stated both are just a game not training. One of the problems I have seen at some of the local level matches is the loose application of the IDPA rules. Bad match habits can develop which will result in penalities at large matches or matches that are run properly.
Not trying to pick nits as I am a card carrying "gamer", but I do follow the rules.

 

[Jim Watson]

IDPA is generally prescriptive in action because it enforces the tactics and procedures favored by Wilson et al. I don't see an easy way around that in the common run of club shoots. If you are going to shoot IDPA by rule, you have to describe the application pretty closely. If you are set up for surprise CoFs then you can turn the shooter loose freestyle and score his recollection and application of IDPA rules and procedures as well as his shooting. But that is not easy.

Another side you mention is the announcement of the CoF, followed by explanation, reexplanation, and re-reexplanation. Followed by the Q & A session. Followed by an (attempted) read-back at the line.

I see two sorts of shooters who have to have every little thing choreographed for them.

First, the top-notch shooter who wants to be sure he is clear on the minimum requirements so he can streamline and go through fast and efficient without getting penalized. He wants to know what Tactical Sequence means in THIS case.

Then there are the folks who go to one local club shoot a month (or less.) They have to have everything minutely described and explained because they don't shoot under rules and procedures enough to remember them and execute routinely. They want to know what Tactical Sequence IS, having forgotten since last month.

I have taken to being sure that everybody on the squad is in earshot and done yakking. I then describe the CoF and take questions. Then when each individual shooter comes to the line, I start him: "If there are no more questions, load and make ready." This generates a lot less conversation and delay than "Do you understand the course of fire?" and draws no more Procedurals than a lengthy review.

 

[hube1236]

Hey Joe, I did not say anything about having heartache with IDPA, so calm down. I am asking questions, and perhaps I am reading a little too much antagonism into your replies. I am an SO and I do participate- sorry for the misspell.

That said you did bring up a point or two.

But the thrust was not if people are nice, or if IDPA is bad, I was asking if in general, people would like to have a little more leeway in course execution, you in particular do not. Fine. One pro, one con.

I was assessed the 3 second procedural, knowing that I probably would. My argument though is not crossing ground with an empty gun, I am not empty, I am still in the fight. Another suggestion I guess in is course design to force the tac reload. What I am getting at is that If one needs to engage two targets before getting to cover and then say four targets after, I have seen where the intent and stated COF reads that a tac reload is done and then moving to P2.... But the shooter dumps rounds and reloads from slide lock. Well with in the rules.

I see not many other uses for a tac load other than to 1) in a pause in the action, to ready for round 2, not possible in games against the clock, 2) use it as effectively as possible, on the move in between positions seems to be a great place. I personally like them and practice because of the dexterity required, but utility is lacking in most cases.

The other point was that there is a rule book, and making believe that I have gone to state level matches also, I see more often the SO's explaining the rules rather than the stage. Being as courteous as courteous can be, but at a state level, one should know the rules, one to protect the integrity from self admitted gamers and those of us who would like to improve our shooting by more effectively shooting a stage.

 

[Joe D]

Hube, sorry, but your first post seemed like you were dictating to the SO what you wanted to do.
I am one of those shooters that does ask to find out what the minimum requirements are for a stage.
I do not consider an extra round fired on a target to be dumping especially if one of the first two is a -3. More than that is pushing it.
If the COF requires a tac reload, the shooter empties his gun by dumping rounds and does a slide lock reload then he should receive a 3 sec. pen.
If he does this more than once he needs a FTDR.
The theory behind retaining a partially used mag is obvious.
I have not seen too much rule explanation being done at most of the matches I have attended. I did get into a conversation with an SO last weekend when Limited Vickers count was being used on scenario stages.
Joe

 

[mayonaise]

hube1236,

I don't agree with Joe D very often but he is right on target here. Actually if Joe D dumped rounds like that he'd get the FTDR. Just for general purposes. Sometimes he gets them just for showing up.


If you're an SO you really need to read the rule book more. Especially #17.

There's no point in debating the Tac Reload issue. It's been beaten to death for years on more forums than we even know about. For now it's a fact of life in IDPA. Just gotta deal with it. I used to practice them a lot and RTR's zero. Now I work on RTR's twice as much as TR's. Faster, cleaner and a much lower FU factor.

 

[MoNsTeR]

Best solution to tac reload headaches:

Shoot USPSA instead

 

[hube1236]

Alright Joe!

Sorry if the first post was a little out of way, I hate typing and try to economize- too short.

Saw you over on 1911- shame about the Georgia State not being hosted yet.

I would not mind another state match at PT, especially with the lessons learned from last year as MD, I could do a better job, but no man is an island. Hope to see you at Birmingham

Dan

 

[OF]

Dumping rounds is against the rules. Doing a tacload in the open when cover is available is against the rules. I agree with you about the uselessness of the tacload on the clock thing, but as has been mentioned it is a dead horse at this point, and if you want to shoot IDPA, you are stuck with it.

I, personally, will never design a course with a tacload or RWR on the clock.

It's a game, if you want to do it 'your way' because you disagree with the 'tacticality' (yikes) of the rules, that's fine (I disagree with them too), but expect to be penalized for it. My advice to people coming to matches and looking to use tactics and skills they learned elsewhere that may not jibe with the rules is to think of the match as not a competition, but a field/scenario for them to practice with, take the penalties and ignore the scores.

- Gabe