IDPA and cover

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I have heard that the rules are up for review and that suggestions are being solicited from the SO's. And I try to not argue with anyone who is giving their time and effort to help with a match. I've been in their shoes and remember how frustrating it can be. But SO's like the one who gave me a procedural for not shooting the target closer to me when it wasn't mentioned in the walk through or the stage write up but said if it's in the rule book you're supposed to know it, are running people out of the sport faster than I could recruit them, so I've pretty much stopped inviting anyone to an IDPA match. Then when I got home and looked up the rule, he was wrong anyway because the target he penalized me for wasn't 6 feet closer to me than the one I shot first. These guys are going to kill the sport. And that's really too bad because we need to get more people interested in the positive aspects of the shooting hobbies. IPSC seemed like a good sport but it's all about speed now, to the point that people come to one match and then won't come back because they see how fast some of these guys are and know they can never win a match no matter what they do because they don't have the time, money or physical conditioning to approach the top competitors in even a local match. Maybe we should work on promoting civilian PPC.
 
But SO's like the one who gave me a procedural for not shooting the target closer to me when it wasn't mentioned in the walk through or the stage write up but said if it's in the rule book you're supposed to know it, are running people out of the sport faster than I could recruit them, so I've pretty much stopped inviting anyone to an IDPA match.

Gosh. I know I'm close to stepping on your toes here, but are you sure they were closer than 2 yards apart? Did you measure it out? If I was setting up the COF, I would have -- or had it written in the course description which way I intended it to be shot.

This is one of the basic rules of a Tactical Priority shooting sequence, and, yes, if you're told to shoot in Tactical Priority then you're suppose to know what that means (slice the pie, near-to-far, etc.). If you didn't think the targets were set up far enough apart to make a difference, then you make a polite protest to the SO, and the MD if need be. They'll measure it out and you'll have a precise answer. I can't imagine a PE call that is more clear-cut than this one. Either they're 72" apart, or they aren't. Either you earned the PE, or you didn't. No grey area.

There's a clear mechanism for dealing with a dispute like that, but, once the match is over (and the protest period, etc.) you have effectively accepted the score as it stands.

And it's THREE seconds. Trust me, that rain falls upon us all from time to time. Part of competing is keeping your composure and staying focused to complete the match well, not letting an (earned or un-earned) 3-second call rattle you!

Maybe we should work on promoting civilian PPC
Well, that would work, if PPC got folks excited and got their blood pumping more than, say, bowling, or maybe gardening...as a spectator sport! :D

The fact is the action shooting sports get people excited and involved because they're fun to participate in, and (almost as importantly) they're fun to watch as a shooter waiting for the rest of your squad to shoot through. PPC, Bullseye, CMP High-Power, bench-rest, etc., etc., are only interesting to the shooter on the line, in the moment. (I shot small-bore NRA 3-position for years, and PPC for several other years...I know from whence I speak!) And they appeal to the "practical utility" side of folk's minds in a way that the "pure art" accuracy games can't.

You say that folks are intimidated by the speed of the top guys and won't get involved because they think they can't WIN. I say BULL-puckey! Just watching those guys go is about 1/2 (well, maybe 1/3) the fun of a match! And with all the divisions and classifications, the sports are set up specifically so folks can succeed, and WIN, at multiple levels as they advance. Hell, I took home a FIRST PLACE trophy from my very first sanctioned match! I was in Marksman class, and cringe at all the mistakes I made that day, but it sure felt good to accept that award! I think we do a far better job than most at capturing the interest and enthusiasm of new and inexperienced shooters!

The rules aren't all that complicated -- once you get some experience with the game -- and they generally help the shooter a lot more than they hurt. I just don't think your feeling -- that a few strict, or even bad, calls are driving folks away -- is valid.

Just my humble opinion, but in my area at least, both games are THRIVING!

-Sam
 
I hope you're right, Sam, on all the positive things you say about IDPA and IPSC both doing well. And I do have to agree that PPC isn't much fun to watch, as much as I enjoyed shooting it when I lived close enough to a club that shot it.

And no, one three second penalty didn't much hurt my match score that day. But I have had people say to me that they weren't coming back because they felt like the guy who gave them the penalty was making up the rules as he went along and one of them even said to me that he thought was just trying to use penalties to keep someone from beating him.

I've been shooting in competition of one type and another for 35 years or so and am not much of a danger to any of the top guys for winning any match anymore. So my concerns are for the sport and for gun ownership, not for personal success. My hope is that someone will take these kinds of issues to heart and work toward not having people leave a match frustrated by these kinds of calls in the future so that our numbers grow instead of shrinking.

Thanks for your well intended and constructive remarks.
 
And no, one three second penalty didn't much hurt my match score that day. But I have had people say to me that they weren't coming back because they felt like the guy who gave them the penalty was making up the rules as he went along and one of them even said to me that he thought was just trying to use penalties to keep someone from beating him.

And that's a shame. While some folks will grumble any time they get docked for anything, the SO should try as hard as possible to be seen as above any hint of personal interest. We have to make the call to keep the game fair, but I'd like to think that in every reasonable situation we're following the directive from the scoring section of the book that says "if there's a question on a scoring call the point goes to the shooter."

So my concerns are for the sport and for gun ownership, not for personal success. My hope is that someone will take these kinds of issues to heart and work toward not having people leave a match frustrated by these kinds of calls in the future so that our numbers grow instead of shrinking.

Well, take heart in that some of us are. Some of us spend a pretty good bit of time (like here) analyzing the rules and trying to figure out how they should apply to the infinite variety of scenarios we might put shooters through.

And, beyond merely that theory stuff, I and my SOs (and most of the SOs I shoot with at various places) make a point of talking through any PE call with the shooter to make sure they know why they got it, how they should have done it, and that there's nothing personal or shameful about the call. Really trying to keep it honest but not kill the joy. Also gives them the chance to have their say, if they choose to.

For what it's worth, we also have a standard practice of taking a moment in private, away from the squad, to discuss any safety warning call (finger, muzzle, STOP, or what have you) with the shooter. Those are bigger screw ups, with actual repercussions, and they can make folks feel pretty embarrassed. (Especially if the call signifies the dreaded "DQ.") It is in our best interest to make sure the shooter knows what we thought they did wrong, acknowledges the mistake (if not, maybe they need to go home for the day...or longer), and that we get a sense that they've got their head screwed back on straight before continuing.

The SOs job is actually pretty tough sometimes. There's a lot of "shepherding" that goes into it -- and if shooters are leaving feeling like we were unfair, dishonest, or just plain mean, then we're doing more harm than good.

Thanks for your well intended and constructive remarks.

And thank you for yours. I do hope you keep shooting and participating. Sounds like you have a lot to offer.

-Sam
 
Ok Sam your SO's you sent the training and the issue that spread down south this way. I have shot SC to MD. Worked the matches all the way up and down south and I say a safe a bit more safer. The off track area is why people think that they are allowed to make new rules up? Nothing else, very simple. Put it out on this post why you think that you have the authority to construct new rules to the rule book. Yes it is hard to be a SO but, not imposible. That is why there is a printed rule book and it should be kept at hand if you are running a local, state or national match. As to the area where people don't handle the gun safe and you take them to the side and have a in house talking too? What are you thinking you have a squad, range, impact area to be worried about! Send him home and tell the shooter why and how serious the volation, do not down play it.
If he has the finger in the trigger, muzzle issue or what ever...............

I will never down play the responsibility of the lives I am in charge of as a SO or take light in the instruction of a new shooter.
 
Chris, I'm sorry but I'm having a little trouble understanding the point you're trying to make. I'm probably just dense, but your sytax can be a little tricky to follow. :eek:

Are you really saying that I and my SOs are spreading bad calls and made-up rules throughout the land? Or that northerners are less safe than southern folks? :scrutiny:

And I've not argued, even once, that folks can or should make up rules! I find that just as frustrating and invalid as you do. In fact, I've suggested that folks SHOULD ask for a call review when something seems to be out of compliance with the book. (Just two posts back, actually.)

Not only do I carry a copy of the rule book with me, and encourage my shooters to do so as well, there is a copy in every equipment/scoring box on every stage we set up. I can't remember one rule challenge on any of our stages in the last two years at least. I think we run a pretty tight ship.

As to the question regarding a talking-to if someone gets a safety warning? First off, we run a "cold range" so the only person with ammo in the gun is the shooter on the line at the time. No discussion about scoring, PEs, or safety calls (or anything else) will take place EVER until after the "Unload, Show Clear, Slide Forward, Hammer Down, Holster, and RANGE CLEAR" commands have been given and followed. At that point, the range is as safe as it can be. If the shooter needs a short debriefing on what just happened, we can have it then without endangering anyone.

You said, "Send him home and tell the shooter why and how serious the volation, do not down play it." But I'm not just talking about a situation where they've gotten the DQ. Every once in a while we feel the need to give a "muzzle" or "finger" warning. If we have the chance and can alert the shooter that we think they're close to a danger zone, we'll warn them off. If they respond instantly and correctly, we'll proceed with the stage. If that happens, then after the "RANGE CLEAR" command we'll have a short, to-the-point chat about what we think almost happened, and make sure the shooter understands the seriousness of the situation. Far from down-playing it, this is EMPHASIZING it - and looking for recognition and understanding from the shooter. "Here's what happened. Here's the call. Do you understand? Do you have any questions?"

Of course, there are times when things happen too fast, the mistake is repeated, or are just too serious a violation, and the shooter gets the instant "STOP" command. And then they have to leave. Yeah, we're going to discuss that one with them, too. Their understanding of the mistake, and their response to the DQ will have a lot to do with whether they are ever invited back to shoot with us. That's important stuff to know.

Again, no one is loaded while this is going on. No one is handling weapons. We aren't walking away from everyone, more than a few steps anyway. If the discussion goes back and forth for more than one minute, the shooter is directed to take it up with the MD and the SO continues with running the rest of the squad. I can't imagine a safer way to handle things.

If you think this is downplaying or making light of safety issues, I think you're misunderstanding me completely. The point is to drive the lesson home in a way that the shooter understands clearly what they did wrong, understands that safety infractions won't be tolerated AT ALL, but also understands that we want them to learn to be better and safer shooters. We aren't trying to drive them away. We aren't passing personal judgement on them for their sins. It's a training moment. "Learn from this and come back next time and do it right!"

Sorry we seem to be at odds with each other. Must be a communication problem because I feel like I'm in sync with your concerns. :confused:

-Sam
 
Translation: "Whoops. I just realized that I've not been enforcing one of the COF requirements and gave a lot of shooters an advantage. And an experienced, accomplished shooter just pointed out my mistake. I'll laugh it off with an "it's-just-a-club-match" and make a weak joke that might fluff his ego. Boy, I'm a doofus."

Except that he didn't assess any penalties to anyone shooting over the top of the barrel after I'd shot around it.......

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Except that he didn't assess any penalties to anyone shooting over the top of the barrel after I'd shot around it.......

Well, there's no excuse for that, obviously. If you're going to ignore the rule for some you have to excuse it for everyone shooting that COF.

If it was a major match and someone pointed out half way through that the SOs had called it differently for some than others -- or even that they weren't calling the penalty at all, allowing some folks to possibly take an advantage while others stuck to the rules -- I would expect a large scale re-shoot or to have the stage thrown out. (There are levels of subjective perception of course, but if more than one or two shooters brought the concen to the MD, I would think that he would be very wise to consider redressing their greivances.) That certainly sucks for everyone, but it is better than unfair play.

-Sam
 
Awsome link there.

No, Sam I am not saying that Nothern shooters are worse or better than any where else. I have enjoyed shooting with all the shooters in IDPA and pretty much are all the best shooters around and good poeple. I was saying about some one bringing a preceived modification of a rule from a match and then it staring to spread down in the area I shoot.

Saftey is way to personal of an issue for all of us. I hate to be hard but, that is one place you can not or be easy to sway. I for one have a had a round go off in my face out off battery from a quick snap of the slide, when I talk to people about not doing that I get a lot of but, that dosen't happen in brand X only in brand Z sorry no easy "it is okay you can keep on doing that". That is an issue of basic gun handling. Thing that sucks it is not in the rule book. The finger in the trigger and reloading I had 3 shooters do that and I rember cause it sticks pretty hard in your mind when they turn around with the gun and sweep every one in the rear are to get that dropped magazine "no I didn't tackle or block on those poor people dodging to get out of the muzzle I just kept screaming stop, stop stop. One shooter we had perform this task still wanted shoot and ask why he still could not complete the match. Just have a lot of great war stories about safety. Just don't take a reload with the finger in the trigger as light talking to because, most shooters will do a reload with gun at a 45 degree or higher angle towards the sun. That is a bad thing is for the housing whithin a mile of the range and impact area. That is why I get a little warm about the safety issue. Some of the best shooters do it.

No, on the close calls yes, I agree with you. That is part of helping the shooter. I don't know if I would never invite some on back but, I am sure there are some out there. I have saw the very green shooter do some scary stuff like swing the gun in an all shucks and say I can't understand how I did that. I think that the book has it down with the new shooter indoc. I think that helps out a great deal.

We just got to figure out a better way to get these rules on track and keep them a little more uniform with our calls.

Yes I have lost my 1st place to calls. The last ones were good calls. I ran past a target and didn't shoot it till I was on the other side of cover that was a door way. The SO didn't yell cover and I took it from cover on the other side of the door. By the book I should have took it from the side I approached it but, I ran past it and common sense told me don't expose your self twice.
 
The only thing worse than a miss, is a slow miss.

Not true.

There are worse things than a slow miss.

Like, an extra, overtime shot, extra hit, no-shoot penalty.....caused by ONE shot.

Ask me how I know !

:D :D :D

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I once gave the command, "SHOOTER REMOVE YOUR THUMB FROM THE TRIGGER GUARD!"

Folks come up with some strange ways to do the wrong thing.

But that was a long time ago, and not an IDPA match.

We do have a rule of thumb at our club, "If I can read the manufacturer's name on the slide of your gun I'm yelling 'MUZZLE'! If I can see what caliber you're shooting, you are GONE!"

Safety first!

-Sam
 
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