GeoDudeFlorida
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And that’s the difference. I’m not here to change minds or convince anybody of anything. Nothing to prove; everything to gain.
It always seemed pretty simple.
Does Neck Tension matter ?
- Thread starter JFrank
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It always seemed pretty simple.
jmorris
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I think it was a quote like that that made me think, "Pounds, of what?" and measure pounds per square inch.
Sometimes I just can't sit there and wonder, if I can answer the question myself...
CQB45ACP
Member
I doubt your post will even get deleted. But mine will
Just pick a different topic like the FCD or best brand press
Nice friendly discussion will ensue.But seriously, this is a forum not a blog or lecture series. Avoid Tyranny of the Experts, If others want to participate, let 'em. On their terms.
Anchorite
Member
Its a term of art. I shot short range benchrest for several years in the early 90s. In my experience, after a case had been fired a couple of times, another condition was created in properly neck turned brass that was being shot in a tight-necked chamber that to me required sensitive feel when bullet seating and was just learned by doing it thousands of times. A tiny groove was pressed into the neck by the pressure ring on the flat-base bullets we shot causing the bullet to “snap” into place when it was seated.
I understand that today, no turn neck chambers are the thing and therefore my experiences may not be relevant anymore. YMMV.
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Nature Boy
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I believe neck tension matters. That’s why I anneal before sizing, use dies honed to match my rifle’s chamber dimensions and keep a consistent 0.002” bullet hold.
It’s a stake in the ground. My concern is if I pull that stake up and add it as another control variable I’ll spend more time, use more components and burn more barrel life just to end up at relatively the same place as I would have without doing it.
That’s an assumption on my part that could be completely wrong as I haven’t done any comparative analysis.
One consideration I use in determining what to add or subtract from my accurizing steps is to ask, “would the benefit of doing (___) net results that are inside/outside my ability to read the wind”. If it’s inside that window I probably won’t mess with it.
ETA: here’s a question for those that tune using neck tension as a variable.
Is it a coarse adjustment knob or a fine tuning knob? Where do you slot it in your accurizing sequence?
It’s a stake in the ground. My concern is if I pull that stake up and add it as another control variable I’ll spend more time, use more components and burn more barrel life just to end up at relatively the same place as I would have without doing it.
That’s an assumption on my part that could be completely wrong as I haven’t done any comparative analysis.
One consideration I use in determining what to add or subtract from my accurizing steps is to ask, “would the benefit of doing (___) net results that are inside/outside my ability to read the wind”. If it’s inside that window I probably won’t mess with it.
ETA: here’s a question for those that tune using neck tension as a variable.
Is it a coarse adjustment knob or a fine tuning knob? Where do you slot it in your accurizing sequence?
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JFrank
Member
Bill, I’m no expert, just a fella trying to struggle through this stuff like many others but here’s my 2 cents.
If a guys rifle is shooting well than the chances are the amount of neck tension being applied is pretty close so for him it may be a smaller knob to turn, however if a guy has trouble getting his groups to settle down, seeing erratic behavior than applying more or less may quickly give improved results. That’s a big knob.
Alex Wheeler, arguably the top rifle builder in the country right now , his builds hold 41 world records has said several times that adjusting neck tension is the most underrated part of tuning a rifle. He performs the task as a final piece of the puzzle or near the end. Myself I like to test earlier in the tuning process as I’ve seen on paper that being on the correct bushing for my application has shown huge improvements making the target results easier to interpret moving forward. See post # 1
If a guys rifle is shooting well than the chances are the amount of neck tension being applied is pretty close so for him it may be a smaller knob to turn, however if a guy has trouble getting his groups to settle down, seeing erratic behavior than applying more or less may quickly give improved results. That’s a big knob.
Alex Wheeler, arguably the top rifle builder in the country right now , his builds hold 41 world records has said several times that adjusting neck tension is the most underrated part of tuning a rifle. He performs the task as a final piece of the puzzle or near the end. Myself I like to test earlier in the tuning process as I’ve seen on paper that being on the correct bushing for my application has shown huge improvements making the target results easier to interpret moving forward. See post # 1
kmw1954
Member
This is more or less the attitude I have had since I started shooting rifles about 3.5 years a ago. After starting working the rifle range and watching the folks shoot these matches. At that time I picked up an inexpensive Savage Model 10 in 223. Just to get started. I quickly learned reloading for it and the regular guys keep giving me pointers and suggestions. Some of which were rather costly $$$$. Some that didn't cost money and only time I added, others I didn't because as you state I couldn't shoot the difference. Yet as My skills and ability grew I would add things that would help.
Today I believed I've reached the end of just how far can I take this combination. Adding more little tricks is "diminishing returns" and it is time for a major upgrade to be more competitive.
I am absolutely at a loss as to why you’re upset. I think there’s some excellent information/discussion in this thread.
The other was closed because of the bickering, and that certainly wasn’t your fault, and it’s a shame it had to go, but sometimes it just isn’t worth the trouble to fix, and mods all have a life outside THR.
kmw1954
Member
To expand this question on measurements I'll add this. If .0005" can make a difference in group size or placement then how about the measurement for shoulder bump? I set a .001" bump goal but end up with a bump spread of -.0005" to +.0015". So if set goal is 1.161 using a comparator and I'm seeing 1.160" to 1.14615 is that acceptable?
Soonerpesek
Member
That explanation was directed to someone who is very exacting of what others say, but maybe not so much themselves.......
kmw1954
Member
In my thread topics I have seen the bickering expand to where I have asked a mod to close it because it in my view was out of hand.
There was a topic I wanted to discuss and get information on and just did not post it because I knew it would deteriorate quickly. Instead I asked a related question and just as suspected within a page I was being asked questions completely unrelated to the question which had already been rectified and folks became upset when I was reluctant to answer them and then it started turning nasty.
GeoDudeFlorida
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That happens and it’s a shame when it does.
For this reason I am reminding certain posters that the OP question was, “Does neck tension matter?” NOT how much does it matter. The question is valid when you consider the obvious answer: it depends. The implication of that answer is: on a long list of variables.
With a .303 Service rifle in a club shoot where only unmodified rifles and service standard loads are allowed, neck tension may be the only variable you can control to gain an edge. In a hunting blind at dawn with a buck nibbling corn 50’ away from the muzzle of a 357, it’s pretty much irrelevant. In a T/C .30-30, 10” barrel loaded with a 180gr SSP a slip-fit that allows the bullet to seat against the leade may make the difference between a 100yd max kill and a 150yd max. It just depends.
Varminterror
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I’m convinced it’s a big knob until it isn’t, and then it is again.
On a plot of Influence on Precision/POI vs. Neck Interference, the curve would be a spread U shape. At the left end of the curve, we don’t have enough grip on the bullet and primary ignition consistency suffers, so the influence is relatively high. As we move towards the center of the curve, the influence of changing tension is reduced and we have a broad section which is nearly flat. Then as we increase interference even more, moving farther to the right, we start damaging the bullet more and more so the influence on precision/POI again increases.
“Accurizing,” amigo, you’re showing our age!
Personally, I want to find that saddle for a given cartridge and caliber class relatively quickly. So I scrutinize my charge weight ladder to evaluate whether I think I’m already in the saddle, or not. If I’m seeing erratic velocity spreads or not seeing nodes appearing, I’ll squeeze a bit more, and usually they’ll appear, and velocity calms down.
But it’s true that none of us exist in a vacuum. I say often, the easiest way to achieve success is to emulate those who are already successful. So I ask other folks who I know to be demonstrably successful with a given cartridge and bullet about their loads. Usually that means I start already in the saddle, and don’t have to add more volume to my load development process.
AJC1
Member
I found untouched carbon in case necks hugely increased the effort/force required to expand and seat... people have been saying it makes it easier... when "brushing" I infer they are adding lubricant. I've seen people recently using a lubricant on a qtip that dries.... not tried that yet either.
ballman6711
Member
I completely agree with this. I've been following this thread in the hopes of expanding my knowledge, and I have learned at least a little. I am far from being a great shooter, and my longest shooting distance is really only about 100 yards.
That being said, I believe that neck tension (or whatever you want to call it) does matter. It prevents setback in my semi-autos, and it prevents bullet jump in my taper crimped revolver rounds. I also believe that consistent neck tension will contribute to more consistent powder ignition. I doubt that I would be able to tell or shoot the difference in a couple thou of tension.
I am enjoying this conversation, and I'm getting at least a little out of it, and hope you all continue. Very interesting reading IMO.
chris
CQB45ACP
Member
I certainly learned a lot too. While it still begs many questions, this thread (as well as the concentricity thread) can help most anyone decide whether to take up this form of shooting (or to what level they want to attempt to go). I won't be, but that's me.
Beyond the technical, it was said above the easiest way to achieve success was to emulate someone already successful. How true. I recall some NASCAR driver years ago saying his strategy for winning Talladega was following Earnhardt until he figured out how to pass him.
Beyond the technical, it was said above the easiest way to achieve success was to emulate someone already successful. How true. I recall some NASCAR driver years ago saying his strategy for winning Talladega was following Earnhardt until he figured out how to pass him.
OP
OP
JFrank
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What part of posts # 118 and 120 are anything more than taking unnecessary shots at me ? And what have I done to deserve that ? Again I show my work and try to stay polite while doing so.
My apologies for being a bit sensitive.
Nature Boy
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Some of you may recall a discussion a few months back about lubing case necks.
I took some pedestrian .30-06 loads, lubed the necks and the bullet bases with graphite before seating. I made 10 with and 10 without.
This is the 10 without
This is 10 with
Lubing necks and bullets had a dramatic, positive effect on speed, ES and SD. Enough so that I’m going to incorporate it into my next load development as a preparatory step.
I think the data shows that adding this step supports neck tension/bullet hold consistency.
What do you guys think?
I took some pedestrian .30-06 loads, lubed the necks and the bullet bases with graphite before seating. I made 10 with and 10 without.
This is the 10 without
This is 10 with
Lubing necks and bullets had a dramatic, positive effect on speed, ES and SD. Enough so that I’m going to incorporate it into my next load development as a preparatory step.
I think the data shows that adding this step supports neck tension/bullet hold consistency.
What do you guys think?
Varminterror
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My post 120 was directed towards @Walkalong, in your defense, that you had NOT in fact started this thread directly after the other post had been locked. Obvious by the timestamps on the posts - this thread started 7 hours before the other thread was locked, which I assumed you had opened this thread in recognition of an interesting but unrelated fork in that other discussion.
ballman6711
Member
I'm no long range precision shooter, but it certainly looks like it made a difference. I would say test it some more and see if it's repeatable, and if so do it.
FWIW I lube the inside of my bottleneck case necks with a very small bit of Hornady Unique every 3-5 pieces. Seems to make sizing easier, and seating easier as well. It's anybody's guess if it gives me more consistent neck tension, but it works for me. I don't have a chrono so can't quantify my results like yours.
I would certainly be interested in seeing your results if you decide to test it. Maybe a test on something cheap, like an AR-15 with FMJ bullets where you're not concerned about burning up an expensive barrel or expensive components.
chris
Post # 118 was most definitely not a shot at you, just stating something that, IMHO, would naturally affect posters and how they posted in this thread. No "cool down" time in other words.
A fact that I had obviously missed.
Soonerpesek
Member
It certainly looks as it helps....
Does the dry lube act as an etching agent to fill the microscopic impurities on the case wall and bullet causing a "cleaner" tension....?
Your process is DEFINATELY something to look into...!!
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But would that be tight enough tolerance to be conclusive? Just a thought.
Consistency is definitely the key in my mind, however anyone do theirs.
I go to great lengths to have my necks clean, brushing a lot during prep. I use no lube inside necks, and by the time I decap, anneal, tumble, size/lube, tumble, trim/chamfer/deburr, tumble, brushing the necks at each junction, they are consistently clean and uniform inside. I brush after trimming/deburring/chamfering,
then tumble, then brush again. I want that case neck entrance clean and smooth as I can get it. No burrs, not corncob grit, no whatever.
I want to avoid damaging jackets that affects BC.
Left is chamfered, right is not. Extreme I know, but it shows what can happen. I want smoooooth. So, light, but not too light, neck tension.
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