Does someone need a license to build uppers?

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ITAR is an intrusive and complex system.

In a legalistic sense, if a foreign national even sees some drawings of something that might be weapons related, that is considered to be "exporting".

One of our customers is a good sized defense and aerospace contractor. They have a whole bunch of guys who spend all of their time deciding whether something is controlled or not. And there is no line in the sand as to whether something is controlled or not.

I just called their line where they supposedly tell you whether you need to be registered or not. I got some airhead that informed me he couldn't advise me and that I would just have to read it and decide for myself whether I wanted to register or not. As if it were a choice!

I have yet to see any support for their "opinions" in the actual documents. For example, they say that assembling parts isn't manufacturing, unless you drill a hole. So building an upper isn't manufacturing, in their opinion, until you pin and weld a flash hider. But I can find absolutely nothing in the actual legislation that would even remotely support that opinion. They're just making stuff up it seems.

As far as I can tell, I'm assisting US citizens in assembling their uppers, and I don't see how that can be construed as being under ITAR. That's the only really concrete definition of a term I can find. I can't find any definition of manufacturing anywhere in their drivel.
 
Oh yes it would. The range officer is a paid employee,
Oh no it wouldn't. Being a paid employee has nothing to do with anything. Again, read what I posted in Post#12. Read the fine print at the bottom. See the bottom paragraph where it say this:
"Note: This coverage by the U.S. Munitions List in paragraphs (a) through (i) of this category excludes any non-combat shotgun with a barrel length of 18 inches or longer, BB, pellet, and muzzle loading (black powder) firearms...."

Sporting shotguns are not covered by ITAR.


I hesitate to call and ask because they have had a habit of telling everyone who ever touched a gun they need to register. It would be like calling the ATF and asking if it's okay to shoulder a sig brace. You already know what their answer is going to be, but that doesn't make them right. What we have here is an organization trying to make up the rules as they go along without any legislative guidance, and for the sole purpose of terrorizing small time gunsmiths and the like. You might as well call a used car salesman and ask him if you need a new car.
Who told you to call?
Never call, send them an email or snail mail request. A verbal opinion is worth the paper its printed on.



A lawyer wouldn't be much better. He's going to tell you not to do it if there's any possible doubt, just like he would tell you not to shoulder a sig brace.
Seriously? Yet you seek the advice of the internet. Wow.



Mostly what I'm interested in at this point is finding other people who are doing the same thing and asking them what their conclusions are, whether they registered or not and why. This gunsmith, or retired gunsmith rather, is the only one I know of at this point, so if anyone could point me to people doing it that would be most helpful.
I could point you to the former 01FFL near Dallas that was assembling AR's "while you wait" at gun shows.....there's a reason he's a former FFL.;)
 
Dude, lawyers are useless in these matters. I've seen two articles written by lawyers who both say assembling an upper is manufacturing and requires ITAR registration. But they're wrong, according to an official statement from the horse's mouth. They would rather cost their clients an unnecessary 2 grand than risk giving the wrong advice.

I did send my question in writing as well, but it goes to the same people. We'll see if I get a response. There's also the issue of them having misguided people in the past, so the credibility of their response is in question from the get go.
 
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gr
Dude, lawyers are useless in these matters. I've seen two articles written by lawyers who both say assembling an upper is manufacturing and requires ITAR registration. But they're wrong, according to an official statement from the horse's mouth. They would rather cost their clients an unnecessary 2 grand than risk giving the wrong advice.

I did send my question in writing as well, but it goes to the same people. We'll see if I get a response. There's also the issue of them having misguided people in the past, so the credibility of their response is in question from the get go.

grampajack,

I teach public law including administrative law on occasion. You should know that as a matter of administrative law, if an employee of an agency gives erroneous information, the agency is not bound by that employee's advice. See Federal Crop Insurance v. Merrill, 332 U.S. 380 (1947).

"Whatever the form in which the Government functions, anyone entering into an arrangement with the Government takes the risk of having accurately ascertained that he who purports to act for the Government stays within the bounds of his authority. The scope of this authority may be explicitly defined by Congress or be limited by delegated legislation, properly exercised through the rulemaking power. And this is so even though, as here, the agent himself may have been unaware of the limitations upon his authority. "

ITAR is a thicket with several different agencies involved--if you want to make sure not to open yourself up to civil or criminal liability, I would suggest contacting a lawyer who actually does ITAR work and pay for a phone consult at a minimum. If you know someone who is registered as a firearms manufacturer, they may be able to refer you to their lawyer.

ITAR involves several different layers of law--e.g. it is a treaty, the House and Senate passed an act implementing the treaty in the U.S. which granted legal authority to the executive branch agencies to come up with regulations published in the Federal Register. Then you have the interpretative guidelines used by the agency to implement agency actions toward enforcing the regulations and on top of that you have policy guidance in the agency then agency informal discretionary actions. Thus, what the statute says is the least of your worries as the statute gives authority to agencies to give "teeth" to that statute. The courts have generally deferred to agencies on technical questions such as what constitutes manufacturing as long as the agency does not contradict the plain language of the statute. That is why you hire a specialist in that particular area of the law.

Agencies have much more to spend on legal fees and have legal counsel on staff than an average citizen has which makes it difficult to challenge federal regulations and policy. It is better to find out what the "hidden laws" are before undertaking an action by contacting a legal specialist rather than after.
 
"I wouldn't have any relationship with him other than he would refer people to me whenever he couldn't take new customers."

So you are a independent business building and selling AR Uppers to customers.

"For one thing, I don't think he has liability insurance or anything else. He's a retired gunsmith with no FFL, and I highly doubt he's registered for ITAR."

Whoa! Stop right there and ignore ITAR altogether. Your gunsmith friend is probably violating the law by not having a FFL. The general consensus is if someone is taking a firearm in for repair / modifying / customizing and keeping it overnight he needs a FFL and to log the gun in his Bound Book.

"I would just form an LLC of my own to cover my own liability."

So you are admitting you are engaging in the business of building key firearm component.

"Like I said before, this is just a way to feel useful and make some ammo money on the side."

And you are engaging in building AR Uppers for profit...

With no formal training...

Without enough liability insurance...

With a business relationship with a gunsmith without a FFL...
 
BSA1 said:
"Like I said before, this is just a way to feel useful and make some ammo money on the side."

And you are engaging in building AR Uppers for profit...

With no formal training...

Without enough liability insurance...

With a business relationship with a gunsmith without a FFL...
Very valid points. It seems like all of these types of discussions end up trying to interpret the ATF laws. Even talking to them directly usually give no clear results. It seems that they make everything convoluted on purpose. If the ATF ever want to go after someone involving firearms, they can easily use their own interpretation. Its all meant to discourage the gun trade....Sorry about the short rant.
 
The OP has a number of serious and complex legal issues to deal with in connection with his contemplated venture. If he doesn't do things correctly he can wind up in a lot of life altering, expensive trouble.

This isn't the place for him to ask advice. He needs our hire his own lawyer.
 
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