Does the .380 really have enough stopping power?

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According to Ed Lovette in Combat handguns magazine ...

50% of confrontations start with a physical attack by the bad guy on the individual and they are beaten and stabbed or shot before they have a chance to respond. If you can get to your gun, and sometimes you can't, you may not be able to have a good shot placement to end it. Also , if you carry a second gun on your opposite side, you may be able to respond. He along with many others who have researched these types of attacks recommend at least a 38 special +P, or a 9mm as your primary carry. WHY? Research shows that the probability of stopping the attacker goes down with each decrease in caliber size. The 380 should not be a primary carry gun in my opinion, if you value your life. Look at the reseach , it is available to you. As Bill Jordan saisdin his book, there are no second place winners. Bring enough gun.
 
I'm sure placement and type of load is crucial. There is a .25ACP load that travels at 1,200 fps and when it hits flesh it creates all different kinds of entrances inside the body which will do some damage if placed properly.:uhoh:
 
I wear slacks with a dress shirt and tie. No spot to carry other than a pocket. I can't get ANY revolver to fit in a pocket and I haven't found a 9mm to try that would fit, though I haven't tried the Rohrbaugh. The PF9 was too big. I tried it and it was too big. I tried compact versions from most other manufacturers and no luck in 9mm. .380 isn't perfect and is outdone by many. The fact for me is that it is the biggest round I can carry so that is what I use. I don't feel outgunned if the need arises. I feel just fine. I also feel just fine when I don't carry so maybe my view is biased a bit towards the smaller pistols anyways.

Carry what you want. I do believe in at least one reload, regardless of the round count, in case a mag fails. 2 reloads is even better, especially with slim single stacks as it is easy to carry multiple. Bad mags are my biggest fear, not caliber and fps.
 
benzy2 said:
I wear slacks with a dress shirt and tie. No spot to carry other than a pocket. I can't get ANY revolver to fit in a pocket and I haven't found a 9mm to try that would fit, though I haven't tried the Rohrbaugh. The PF9 was too big. I tried it and it was too big. I tried compact versions from most other manufacturers and no luck in 9mm. .380 isn't perfect and is outdone by many. The fact for me is that it is the biggest round I can carry so that is what I use. I don't feel outgunned if the need arises. I feel just fine. I also feel just fine when I don't carry so maybe my view is biased a bit towards the smaller pistols anyways.

Carry what you want. I do believe in at least one reload, regardless of the round count, in case a mag fails. 2 reloads is even better, especially with slim single stacks as it is easy to carry multiple. Bad mags are my biggest fear, not caliber and fps.
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I know for the Beretta .32 ACP they make a pocket holster so they probably have others for different calibers. A .25 ACP is really tiny or one of those mini revolvers by NAA.
 
HOWARD J said:
@stinger 327

What you got there-Chinese 76.2 X 39 -copper dipped ?
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That's a pic I took from a bunch of shot up rounds I found at the range. There is one in there a .32 ACP which is a magsafe That I tried out that was pretty devistating. That's quite a spread. I found that rifle round so I took it as a reference in size to the little slugs. Never saw a rifle round like this before looks like its all cooper. It's Chinese? So it's foreign which is probably why I have never seen one of these before. Why is it copper dipped?
 
I know for the Beretta .32 ACP they make a pocket holster so they probably have others for different calibers. A .25 ACP is really tiny or one of those mini revolvers by NAA.
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Sorry, I should have made it clearer. I have an LCP that fits in a pocket fine and made a holster that keeps it from printing. It was the biggest caliber I could get yet still fit the pocket.
 
A 9mm as light, thin and overall as small as one of the above 380s will not come close to having the controllability of these 380 pistols either.
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If you had said that to me that on Wed, then I would have had agreed with you, but as of last night (Thursday) No. Just had my first range trip with my new Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth and I can say it's very controllable. About on par with my Taurus TCP, a little better than my Kel-tec 380 and much much better than my NAA 380, the NAA 380 just flat out hurt. You can tell there is more coil with the R9 but the design of the gun enables you to maintain control and followup shots are a breeze and I was able to shoot about 75 rounds without any discomfort. With the kel-tec after about 1 or 2 mags it begins to feel uncomfortable, with the NAA, after 1 or 2 rounds.
 
I have a pocket 380 (AMT Backup) which is literally a "Pain". But so what? So what if the pocket gun you have kicks? You aren't using this gun for plinking and fun. It has 1 purpose in life, and we all know what that purpose is. So you shoot 1-2 magazines through it once in a while to practice with. So your hand stings a little. So what? When the time comes to actually use it, it won't sting. You won't even know it's in your hand. Your mind will be racing. Your pulse will be through the roof. You will be sweating. Your breathing will be almost uncontrollable. And then your brain says: Pull the trigger. And you do. And guess what? You won't notice that the LCP, AMT, Rohr, or even a 4" S&W revolver does or doesn't kick, sting, or anything else. All your mind will be thinking is: "Damn, I freakin Shot somebody.... Is he dead?...... Holy Shiite!!!!!" And if you think you're special and different, then have at it. But you're not.

Stop worrying about the kick of the gun. It's a pocket gun. It isn't your plinking gun. It's your backup gun when you can't carry another gun. I shoot hundreds of round per outing through my CZ and Sig. I shoot 10 (2 mags) through my 380 backup. Yea, my hand hates it. But when it's "Real Life", my hand won't even notice it.
 
W L Johnson said:
If you had said that to me that on Wed, then I would have had agreed with you, but as of last night (Thursday) No. Just had my first range trip with my new Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth and I can say it's very controllable. About on par with my Taurus TCP, a little better than my Kel-tec 380 and much much better than my NAA 380, the NAA 380 just flat out hurt. You can tell there is more coil with the R9 but the design of the gun enables you to maintain control and followup shots are a breeze and I was able to shoot about 75 rounds without any discomfort. With the kel-tec after about 1 or 2 mags it begins to feel uncomfortable, with the NAA, after 1 or 2 rounds.
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What is it about the R9's design that you think makes it more controllable than any of the locked breach designed pocket 380 pistols?

I haven't fired an R9, but have seen videos of it being fired like this one http://www.youtube.com/v/fZQLo1Zb8ss&hl=en_US&fs=1& and it sure looks to me to have way, way more recoil than any pocket 380 I have ever fired.

In the three or four videos I have seen of an R9 being fired I notice that the shooters have to re grip between every shot making followup shots with the R9 very slow.

The shooter in this video had some remarks about the severity of the R9's recoil.
 
Here it is compared to my Kel-tec
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=117872&d=1268846170
What is it about the R9's design that you think makes it more controllable than any of the locked breach designed pocket 380 pistols?
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At this point I'm not sure, maybe the shape, maybe the way I hold it or the fact it just flat out fits my hands better, I have small hands. Or just 40 years of shooting.

I notice that the shooters have to re grip between every shot
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I didn't have that problem at all, watching the video it looks like they're fighting the recoil instead of moving with it, kind of like riding a horse, you learn to move with the horse or he'll beat the heck of of you. They even act like the trigger is too much for them. Give them a NAA 380 (straight blow back) and see how they like it's trigger.
The shooter in this video had some remarks about the severity of the R9's recoil.
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Oh the recoil is higher alright, but you learn to work with the recoil not against it. If you look at pictures of it compared to other pocket guns, the thing is smooth, but smooth in a way that grip is not a problem. I think the designer put a lot of time and effort into in.

wish I had time to go into more detail.
 
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W L Johnson said:
Here it is compared to my Kel-tec
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=117872&d=1268846170

At this point I'm not sure, maybe the shape, maybe the way I hold it or the fact it just flat out fits my hands better, I have small hands. Or just 40 years of shooting.


I didn't have that problem at all, watching the video it looks like they're fighting the recoil instead of moving with it, kind of like riding a horse, you learn to move with the horse or he'll beat the heck of of you. They even act like the trigger is too much for them. Give them a NAA 380 (straight blow back) and see how they like it's trigger.

Oh the recoil is higher alright, but you learn to work with the recoil not against it. If you look at pictures of it compared to other pocket guns, the thing is smooth, but smooth in a way that grip is not a problem. I think the designer put a lot of time and effort into in.

wish I had time to go into more detail.
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Well I'm always skeptical of testimonials without facts.
Here is another youtube video http://www.youtube.com/v/l3F38-wyFgw&hl=en_US&fs=1& with an old timer shooting the R9 and I would guess he has a lot of years shooting too. I notice he doesn't flinch at all even with the severe recoil and muzzle flip but still has to re grip after ever shot! I'm not trying to be confrontational here but after many years of reading stuff on these message boards I have learned to believe what I see more than what I read on these boards.
 
Well I'm always skeptical of testimonials without facts.
Here is another youtube video http://www.youtube.com/v/l3F38-wyFgw&hl=en_US&fs=1& with an old timer shooting the R9 and I would guess he has a lot of years shooting too. I notice he doesn't flinch at all even with the severe recoil and muzzle flip but still has to re grip after ever shot! I'm not trying to be confrontational here but after many years of reading stuff on these message boards I have learned to believe what I see more than what I read on these boards.
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Well last night was my first time shooting it, and after getting the feel of the gun I had no problem going into rapid fire. Now mind you it wasn't as rapid as I could do with a 92fs, but I had no problem keeping it in my hand. Take it for what it's worth. The gun does have considerable muzzle flip but if you roll with it instead of fighting it, like riding a horse again, getting it back on target and keeping it in your hand is not bad. Now my friend didn't like the recoil at all and he shoots an 11oz 357mag S&W.
 
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W L Johnson said:
Well last night was my first time shooting it, and after getting the feel of the gun I had no problem going into rapid fire. Now mind you it wasn't as rapid as I could do with a 92fs, but I had no problem keeping it in my hand. Take it for what it's worth. The gun does have considerable muzzle flip but if you roll with it instead of fighting it, like riding a horse again, getting it back on target and keeping it in your hand is not bad. Now my friend didn't like the recoil at all and he shoots an 11oz 357mag S&W.
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If I get a chance I'll have to try one and see just how it feels in my hand.
 
Second thought, I know Rohrbaugh has upgraded the recoil spring on the newer models and I wonder if that may have something to do with it as mine is a newer one.
 
In a similar vein, the Kel-Tec P-11 is not bad at all to shoot, even though it's much smaller than many 9mm pistols. Trigger pull sucks, but recoil isn't bad.

I still see a role for the .32 and .380 pistols, but I'm able to carry the P-11 with any clothing I normally wear, so I see the tinier pistols solely as backups or for deeper concealment.

BTW, thanks to all for keeping this pretty darned civil, compared to the flame wars I see elsewhere. That's why I come back to THR so often!

All my best,
Dirty Bob
 
W L Johnson, could you describe what you mean by "roll with it"? I understand the horse analogy but I have never seen it applied to firearms and quite honestly don't understand what you are talking about.
 
Well, maybe this way, kind of like when you jump from a high height and when you land you make sure your knees are not locked. Don't lock your arms, keep them a little bit free bending at the elbow and shoulder (relax!) in such a way that your elbow is allowed to move with the recoil so that the recoil is not all taken by the hand as shock. The shock is what hurts. Hold the gun tight, don't lock your joints but do not limp wrist otherwise all the recoil will go right into your hand and only your hand.

I may be describing it not clearly because frankly I've never tried to describe it or even think about it this way.

Anyone remember that .577 T-rex video where they showed a bunch of guys shooting it and it was knocking them over and hurting the %#% out of them? The last guy (in the version I saw) shot it and acted like nothing had happened. He knew not to lock up tight, hold the gun tight, but don't lock your joints and plant your feet right.

Maybe next time I take it to the range I will make a note of examining what I am doing, I've been doing it so many years I don't think about it, or maybe see about making my own video.

Guys you are making me think here and it's giving me a headache.:p
 
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Every article I have ever read that was written by some of the top shooters and instructors instructs us to have very firm and rigid arms and wrists in order to keep the gun on target for quick followup shots and to prevent the limp wrist effect.

The so called limp wrist effect can be from soft arms as well as soft wrists.
 
Every article I have ever read that was written by some of the top shooters and instructors instructs us to have very firm and rigid arms and wrists in order to keep the gun on target for quick followup shots and to prevent the limp wrist effect.

The so called limp wrist effect can be from soft arms as well as soft wrists.
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I'm not saying not to be firm but saying don't lock up your joints. That recoil has got to go somewhere and 100% of it being taken up by the hand with a pocket rocket hurts and will cause you to lose your grip on the gun.

Here you go, this is what I'm thinking of.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_stayingstance_200803/

However, the target stance has a number of characteristics that make it less than desirable for personal defense. The one-arm, locked-elbow hold makes fast, repeat shots very difficult. In addition, it does very little to help the shooter contend with the heavier recoil of defensive handgun ammunition. Further, the erect carriage of the body does little to prepare the shooter to move quickly to a new location (cover) or to deal with a new threat coming from another direction.
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stinger 327 said:
That's a pic I took from a bunch of shot up rounds I found at the range. There is one in there a .32 ACP which is a magsafe That I tried out that was pretty devistating. That's quite a spread. I found that rifle round so I took it as a reference in size to the little slugs. Never saw a rifle round like this before looks like its all cooper. It's Chinese? So it's foreign which is probably why I have never seen one of these before. Why is it copper dipped?
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Hi there .. What you have found IS a chinese made round .. It is 'copper washed ..
The reason being it was a way for the chinese to get their ammo into this country, without divulging the fact they're all steel jk'td bullets just underneath .. naturally these are illegal & no longer allowed for importation ..The newer low end cheap Tiger brand ( i believe) is real garbage & nothing but trouble in the sks / ak 7.62X39's
 
SniperStraz said:
I'm sure this question has been brought up many times, but I can't seem to find any answers that are very straight forward so here we go... I'm thinking about getting a .380 ACP in the form of something like a Kel-Tec P3AT. At that size and weight its like a CC dream come true, but I'm not so confident about the stopping power. What do you guys think? Does it have sufficient power to quickly drop a man?
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shot placement my friend .. my best bud in l/enf ' carries that exact model as b/up & has for several years now .. Would you rather bring a knife to a gunfight ? .. Immediate stopping power ? too many factors to figure in ..What YOU are comfortable with is what you'll shoot the most & practice with at say 7 yds .. One thing that i haven't seen mentioned here is : ONE NEVER KNOWS UNTIL 'THAT TIME' JUST HOW ANYONE WILL REACT .. It certainly beats throwing rocks .. ( Combat Inf' Vietnam Vet )
 
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