Does the .380 really have enough stopping power?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have two pistols I can carry. A Taurus .380 and an XD .45GAP. The .380 holds 25 rounds between two mags, the XD holds 19. The way I look at it, if half a box of .380 can't stop it, then chances are 19 .45 aren't going to either. So what's the difference?

I have complete confidence in my .380. If I didn't I wouldn't carry it. If I was up north where people wear thicker clothes, I would probably consider something else, or a staggered load of ball and JHP. But down here that really isn't an issue.
 
I'm in the camp of "carry the biggest, baddest caliber that you can shoot well and can conceal everyday."

For me, that's a 9x19mm, in a Kel-Tec P-11. I can shoot it well and can conceal it every day, regardless of attire, provided I can wear a belt.

No caliber will work without good shot placement. Remember Michael Platt, the bad guy "on a mission," who faced a number of FBI agents on April 11, 1986 in the now-infamous Miami Shootout. In Dr. Anderson's excellent book on the subject, we learn that Platt sustained a mortal wound in the first moments of the fight, but he went on to kill two and seriously wound several agents, before being stopped by repeated hits from a .357 Magnum.

If all you can carry and shoot well is a .380, then please practice even more than you would with a larger caliber! You need to be accurate under pressure to be sure of stopping an opponent. Yes, he (or they) might run at the sight of a gun, but what if it's a Michael Platt, or a guy flying on PCP?

The truth is that we need to try to prepare for the worst-case scenario, even if we think it'll never happen to us. I wear my seat belt every time I drive, not because I expect to be in a crash, but because it still could happen. I have life insurance, even though I'm young and healthy, not because I plan to die young, but because it might still happen. I carry a 9mm for much the same reason.

Regards,
Dirty Bob
 
I'm sure this question has been brought up many times, but I can't seem to find any answers that are very straight forward so here we go... I'm thinking about getting a .380 ACP in the form of something like a Kel-Tec P3AT. At that size and weight its like a CC dream come true, but I'm not so confident about the stopping power. What do you guys think? Does it have sufficient power to quickly drop a man?
Click to expand...
There are many small firearms designed for this round, but many of the modern 9mm's are just as small and pack more punch.
Click to expand...

There are only two* 9mms that even come close to a P3AT in both size and weight. For a gun that can be carried anywhere - front or back pocket holster, under nothing but a t-shirt with a neck holster - you truly can't beat a P3AT.



*KT P3AT weight: empty 8.3 oz. loaded 11 oz; width: .77"; height; 3.5"; length 5.2"

Rohrbaugh R9 weight: empty 14.3 oz loaded 17 oz; width .91"; height 3.7"; length 5.2"

KT PF-9 weight: empty 14.7 oz loaded 18 oz; width .98"; height 4.4"; length 5.9"

The Rohrbaugh R9 comes close in size, but gives up over 1/10" in width, and a critical 6 oz in loaded weight. It does this at over 3x the price of a P3AT. The PF-9 gives up width and length, wins on height, and adds an extra round of capacity for only 1oz extra loaded weight when compared to the R9. I didn't bother with the Kahr PM9 in the measurements above. With a width of 1.1" it gives up 1/3" to the P3AT, and at 20oz loaded is nearly twice the weight of a P3AT. The Skyy CPX-1 is dimensionally similar to the PF-9, but loses out on both empty and loaded weights. http://www.mouseguns.com/PocketAutoComparison.jpg - That's Bobo's pocket auto comparison chart. See the thread stickied at the top of this forum for more info. Thanks for the awesome chart Bobo!

In regards to the Marshall & Sanow numbers quoted earlier in this thread, please do a search here for more info. Their "research" is highly disputed.

As far as the .380 ACP itself, it's not a bad round. Not my first choice, but great in a small gun like a P3AT. Also great in a larger gun for someone who's recoil sensitive for any number of reasons. Heck, the Slovakian and Czech Republic Armies still issue the CZ-82 chambered in 9x18 Russian (almost a ballistic twin to the .380) as their standard sidearm. The Makarov itself has served the Russian military well for many years, and the Walther PP and PPK were always plenty for the German Police. It's not a ballistic wonder cartridge like the .357 SIG, but the .380 has worked just fine for the better part of the last century.
 
Last edited:
usp9

usp9- I do apologize for not having my facts straight. But you are missing my point. I do not endorse a .380acp as adequate for self defense. No one in U.S. law enforcement does either. Most uniformed police these day's use the .40 and most SWAT teams and Special Forces use the .45 acp. Some uniformed even use .45's and there are still some departments that use the 9mm. I cannot imagine anyone in LE being issue a .380 acp, so why would you use one to defend yourself? I was in LE and I do not even trust the 9mm, if they made a .70 caliber that shot without a lot of recoil I would use that. I would trust my life to the .40 .45 acp and the 10mm [if I could afford the ammo to practice with this round--10mm] Plus my guns have Hi-Capacity Mags. [16 in the .40's and 14 in the .45's] But if you want to use the .380 acp to defend you and your Loved one's I could never endorse that. I will give you my phone number and you can hire me to guard your house with my .45 acp, you will need it if you are using a .380 acp.

The Best to you and yours!

Frank
 
357 magnum said:
I do not endorse a .380acp as adequate for self defense. No one in U.S. law enforcement does either.
Click to expand...


That simply isn't true. Many LEO agencies endorse the .380 as an off duty weapon. If you really were in LE you would know that. Thanks, but I'll pass on the protection offer, I've got it covered.
 
Context

Folks I think we need to look at the context so to speak. We need to look beyond the caliber to the overall situation. Frank (357 Magnum) I agree that a .380 is a poor choice for a duty weapon. I don't think Straz is looking for that. For a gun that's never too heavy to carry, and always there, a P3AT is quite a bit of gun in a small package. I prefer my 1911 (soon to be either of them) as a primary carry gun, followed by either my BHP or my S&W M66 snubbie. None of this will pocket carry and disappear like a P3AT. None of them will carry in a neck holster when I'm out running or jogging in gym shorts and t-shirt. In those situations I'll take the P3AT over no gun. The P3AT is also a great pocket carry backup to a larger gun. I view the P3AT as a shoot back while you get the heck out of dodge gun.

If I was a peace officer - never knowing if I'd be facing well armed criminal on the next traffic stop, or a unstable person with a long gun on the next domestic disturbance - I'd certainly want the largest caliber, highest capacity weapon I could comfortably shoot and afforbably practice with riding on my duty belt. Therein lies the difference. An armed citizen arms himself in case trouble arises. A law enforcement/peace officer arms himself to deal with the trouble he must go into as part of his job.

For home defence I'll take a shotgun or carbine over any handgun.

In the end though, I'll take any firearm over a sharp stick or my bare hands. The tiny gun I can carry anywhere beats the big gun I can carry sometimes. In that context the P3AT and like guns are great tools to have in the toolbox with the others.
 
That simply isn't true. Many LEO agencies endorse the .380 as an off duty weapon. If you really were in LE you would know that. Thanks, but I'll pass on the protection offer, I've got it covered.
Click to expand...


A buddy of mine was a Secret Service agent in the late 80's-early 90's and was issued a SIG P230 as an off duty/backup.Another friend of mine is a MA State Trooper who works undercover;for that,he gets a Walther PPK.I'd heard that one state police agency issues the PPK as a back-up,for some reason I'm wanting to say TN or KY but can't recall.While not common,there are .380's in American law enforcement.The Kel Tec is VERY popular for off duty carry.
 
My 2 main carry pistols are a PPK/S or a KelTec 380 I carry both with Corbon DPX . This is I belive the best 380 round at present. It a perfect match for the Kel Tec . If I'm carrying my 45's the KT is my Back up. I have full faith in a 380. A SD shooting by a civ is a lot different that most police shoot outs. They need to shoot cars and glass along with people. We need close up and personal and a 380 does that,just fine
At 1 time KKy State Police issued PPK/S for back up and off duty. I had 1 of their PPK/S for a time.
 
" animal analogies are not accurate " ??? People have adrenaline too !! We hunters have known for a long time that it's best to shoot an animal that is calm .One filled with adrenaline will run a lot more. We also know that a person will be far less effected by a bullet when high on adrenaline , alcohol, or drugs .Your chances are very good that a criminal today is high and this especially difficult with meth. If you want to think that a 380 is a good stopper ,you're living in a dream world....
 
And how many handgun killings have you worked on, mete? In what capacity? :)

No handgun is a "good stopper." The .380 is perfectly competent, as I've seen again and again. It might not be my first choice, but it works - as we professionals see in the real world, if not in the Walter-Mittylike minds of some readers and writers of the drugstore gun and adventure press. :rolleyes:
 
" animal analogies are not accurate " ??? People have adrenaline too !! We hunters have known for a long time that it's best to shoot an animal that is calm .One filled with adrenaline will run a lot more. We also know that a person will be far less effected by a bullet when high on adrenaline , alcohol, or drugs .Your chances are very good that a criminal today is high and this especially difficult with meth. If you want to think that a 380 is a good stopper ,you're living in a dream world....
Click to expand...

Agreed- worst case scenario is human respnds like wild animal, physiologically. An animal is not going to look down at a gunshot wound and break psychologically or anything- while looking at you incredulously "whaa... you... SHOT me.. //!!??". Nor will the meth-head. They both just keep going and going, energizer style.

I'll take my chances with something heartier, but ymmv.
 
.380

My post was not meant to insinuate that the .380 is a poarticularly useful or useless round, just that there are better options out there and in the same or comparable guns.

Regarding the post about animals and humans being different... I will stand by my statement. I am not saying that there are not instances when humans act like a cornered animal, especially if they are hopped up on drugs. However, how many of us who would use the firearm are likely to encounter THAT situation? I guess for folks that live in larger cities it might be more of an issue. However, as a hunter I have seen animals with their heart literally blown in half that have run nearly 100 yards. In processing the animal, the lungs and heart looked like jello. This was with a 7mm Magnum rifle.

So, either 1) animals are totally different than humans in the way they react, or 2) we are just pissing in the wind shooting ANYONE with anything less than a 7mm Magnum rifle?!?!?!

Todd
 
The Winchester Ranger "T" load of 95 grains has a geletain penetration of only 7.65" and a weight retention in the 80-86% range. Can't find a comparable Winchester .38 special round.
 
I guess for folks that live in larger cities it might be more of an issue.
Click to expand...

Pure fallacy.

Drug use is probably one area of many where rural areas are just as bad as urban areas.. And meth is NOT an urban drug, by any means. You rural guys are a lot more likely to face a meth head than us city folk, according to everything I've seen.

As for the .380ACP, I guess the following sentence sums up my reasoning for liking the bigger calibers.. More importantly, it's (more or less) been my personal criteria for a personal defense caliber for as long as I've owned guns.

IMHO it is all about bone. If your favorite caliber cannot smash through bone consistently, it is useless: The End.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
Drug usage...

I don't know if there is a statistic that would show that the percentage of drug usage in the city vs the country is any different at all. But consider that in the city you are in closer proxemity to more people on a day to day basis, where in the country I am probably LESS likely to run into as many people. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have actually seen a person that I thought was high on drugs, and in most instances it was when visiting Dallas or Houston. A lot of meth usage is done in secluded areas and I'm unlikely to run into these folks, although I have seen signs of temporary meth labs while hunting and at work.

So, anyway, I won't argue with you on this. But I will say that when I get my CCL, my primary concern will not be drug users, it will be protecting myself from robbery and the such and probably would have a better chance of running into a drunk than a druggie. Although most of these guys are rough and tough types, I don't think most of them will be high at the time of the robbery. Either way, my gun of choice is a .357 magnum snub-nose. From what I've read, the .357 is a very good defensive round.

If a person wants to use a .380, I say let them, it's a personal choice, and I'm sure each person must consider how they "expect" it may be used if ever. If I felt like the likelihood was great that I would be in a situation where I would need 17 rounds of 9mm, then I would get an auto that holds that many rounds.

Hannibal, while I agree with your analogy above, one thing I would add is that even though you may eventually die, would you have time to take me with you? If you could take 3-4 rounds of .380 and eventually die, but in the meantime get one or two shots off at me, well, then I haven't really defended myself very well.

I think the .380 will absolutely kill a person. Will it kill them fast enough so they don't also shoot me? I'm not sure. Maybe and maybe not... But, since there are other guns with more fire power that are the same size, I can't justify taking the chance.

Todd
 
Time after time in these threads, people will cite how many humans have been killed with small calibers. What I can't understand is why anyone thinks that matters. In a defensive shooting, it is irrelavent if the BG dies or lives. The only thing that matters is that he ceased attacking. We all know that .22 LR can kill a person, but that won't help a victim if the BG dies 2 days later.

Forget about whether "X" round will kill someone. Doesn't matter when defensive use is the application. Your objective is to STOP them. Carry the most effective round you can, not the one that "experts" consider adequate.

Pure fallacy.

Drug use is probably one area of many where rural areas are just as bad as urban areas.. And meth is NOT an urban drug, by any means. You rural guys are a lot more likely to face a meth head than us city folk, according to everything I've seen.
Click to expand...

I agree, to a point. I suspect that certain types of narcotics are more prevalant in urban areas, but I will definitely concur on the Meth. Very common in trailer parks and other trashy rural or semi-rural areas.

On the same note, I doubt those of us in rural areas are more likely to encounter them. The very nature of a lower population in a sprawling rural community is that you have less contact with other people. Drugs aside, you are simply less likely to encounter someone who would do you harm. In my area, I could probably go out and walk 10 miles in the middle of the night and not encounter another human, except those driving past in automobiles. Walk 10 miles in Denver (LoDo, 16th/Market street area) at any time and you will probably have come within contact distance of several hundred people.
 
A short time back, I read a post over at Evan Marshall's board.

I don't remember for shure, but I think it may have been Mr Marshall that posted it.

As I remember the post, it refered to an insident between two police officers, one being the poster and a perp.

One of the police officers hit the perp with 4, 45acp hp rounds and the perp was still able to returned fire, killing that officer.

The surviving officer finally put the perp down.

The point is that it seems so many people think that going to the larger round is going to do the trick, when really it's all about shot placement, shot placement, shot placement and shot placement.
 
" animal analogies are not accurate " ??? People have adrenaline too !! We hunters have known for a long time that it's best to shoot an animal that is calm .One filled with adrenaline will run a lot more. We also know that a person will be far less effected by a bullet when high on adrenaline , alcohol, or drugs .Your chances are very good that a criminal today is high and this especially difficult with meth. If you want to think that a 380 is a good stopper ,you're living in a dream world....
Click to expand...

I agree that animal analogies are the worst thing you can rely on. Yes, humans have adrenaline, but animals have the capability of dumping more, in some species, thousands of times more adrenaline into their system then humans.

A bull shark of 6 feet and 200 lbs in distress is capable of creating 2500 times more adrenaline than a human of equal size.
 
I agree, to a point...

On the same note, I doubt those of us in rural areas are more likely to encounter them. The very nature of a lower population in a sprawling rural community is that you have less contact with other people.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree.

animals have the capability of dumping more, in some species, thousands of times more adrenaline into their system then humans.
Click to expand...

Now that's pretty damned fascinating. :D
 
usp9

It has been over 20 years since I was in LE. I was shot with a .45 my right hip was shattered. I have had two hip replacements since then. The first was emergency surgery, the second a revision [they do wear out] The second has left me in chronic pain. Honestly I am not picking on you. My point is the .380 acp is not issued as a duty weapon for a reason. It is ok they are back-up in some cases nowdays-used to be a .38 snubbie was back-up for a lot of folks. The things you look for in a primary defensive weapon a .380 acp does not have. You want a caliber that can crush bone and get to a main artery to incapaciate your perp as quickly as possible. Something that can cause some rapid blood loss. Real BG move around, they are not paper targets. I am not sure what the current percentage is, but I believe less then 15% of what is fired during a gunfight actually hits it's intended target. Another thing you want your caliber to do is go through common barriers such as windshield glass, wood doors, etc. When you are defending your life and the lives of those around you the quicker the perp is out of action the better. If you only hit em once you are going to want it to be a good one. I really like the high capacity mag's I beleive it is a blessing in a defensive situation. I could not sleep at night if I advised people to use the .380 acp as your primary defensive weapon. You only use it if that is all you have or that is the only caliber you can shoot comfortably.

Take Care-The Best to You and Yours!

Frank
 
In an SD siduation, shooting through doors would mean that I am at home, in which case I would not be using my hide out pocket gun, but rather my 12ga shotgun or at least a high cap CZ..

Shooting through a windshield in a SD siduation?? IMO that is more likely a law enforcement sidutaion.
 
all i have to say is...
My bullets are bigger and better than yours!!!!!

ok ok, maybe not...
but, i do agree with the FIRST POSTS-
need a one shot stop? bring a cannon, and make sure you hit em with it!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
Kel-Tec P32 or P3AT?
2
Replies
42
Views
3K
Wilson 17&26
W
N
  • Locked
Ditching my p3at, should I get PF-9 or LC9?
Replies
23
Views
2K
pikid89
P
Ryanxia
  • Locked
Which .380?
2
Replies
28
Views
912
theglockside
T
S
  • Locked
.380 recommendation
2 3
Replies
61
Views
3K
broken
B
K
  • Locked
Why does Beretta not make a pocket .380?
Replies
9
Views
1K
golden
G
Back
Top