76shuvlinoff
Member
...so at this point is this thread actually about justifying carrying the mouse guns or justifying carrying the hand cannons?
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Does the .380 really have enough stopping power?
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punkndisorderly
Member
My generic answer to the what caliber is big enough dicussion:
The "what caliber" question is so devisive because there is no real generic answer that fits. There are simply too many variables, none of which can ever be completely defined or forseen, to really definitively answer the question.
Some of these variables relate to the person being defended from. How big are they, do they trun tail and run when faced with armed response, are they under the influence of drugs/alcohol, how far away are they, which way they are facing (direct vs quartering shots), what are they wearing (heavy clothes/ leather vs t-shirt an shorts), how determined an attacker are they, what are hey armed with, etc.
Some of the variables relate to the firing platform itself. Are the sights usable under stress by the person shooting it? hat ammo is loaded in it? How intimidating does it look? How is it carried and how quickly it can be presented? How quickly can followup shots be fired? Where do the fired rounds hit?
Then there are the variables with the person carrying it. How much gun are they willing to tote around. How much are they willing to alter their wardrobe to carry? How proficient are they with a particular firearm and firearms in general? How good are their eyes? How big/small/strong/weak are their hands? Etc.
What environmental situations also come into play. How near/far is the threat? What temperature is it (how much clothing is between the bullet and vitals)? Are there obstructions between the defender and threat (auto glass, brush, doors)? What are the lighting conditions?
There are situations where a BB gun may be enough caliber. For example if the sight of a gun deters the threat to go somewhere else quickly. There are situations where a .45 may be not enough gun. For example a heavily clothed and determined attacker high on PCP. There are also situations where a gun can be too much gun. For example a Beretta 96 or H&K USP .45 left at home when needed because it was too big or heavy for the person to want to carry, or in the hands of an elderly/disabled person with a weak grip/arthritis/etc. A .380 or .38 snubbie may even be enough caliber, but if the shooter can't hit with it, or the trigger guard is too small to fire with the gloves being worn, or any of a number of variables; it's all for nothing.
There is no generic gunfight, generic threat, or generic gun owner so there really can't be a generic answer. Each person who carries must decide how best to maximize their defense.
To me, this means carrying the biggest caliber and gun that you can shoot well and are willing to carry. Stoke it with the best defensive ammo you can find and that will function 100% in your carry gun. Keep your carry gun(s) well maintained and shoot them often. Then hope if it ever comes time to present and fire, hope you chose well.
The "what caliber" question is so devisive because there is no real generic answer that fits. There are simply too many variables, none of which can ever be completely defined or forseen, to really definitively answer the question.
Some of these variables relate to the person being defended from. How big are they, do they trun tail and run when faced with armed response, are they under the influence of drugs/alcohol, how far away are they, which way they are facing (direct vs quartering shots), what are they wearing (heavy clothes/ leather vs t-shirt an shorts), how determined an attacker are they, what are hey armed with, etc.
Some of the variables relate to the firing platform itself. Are the sights usable under stress by the person shooting it? hat ammo is loaded in it? How intimidating does it look? How is it carried and how quickly it can be presented? How quickly can followup shots be fired? Where do the fired rounds hit?
Then there are the variables with the person carrying it. How much gun are they willing to tote around. How much are they willing to alter their wardrobe to carry? How proficient are they with a particular firearm and firearms in general? How good are their eyes? How big/small/strong/weak are their hands? Etc.
What environmental situations also come into play. How near/far is the threat? What temperature is it (how much clothing is between the bullet and vitals)? Are there obstructions between the defender and threat (auto glass, brush, doors)? What are the lighting conditions?
There are situations where a BB gun may be enough caliber. For example if the sight of a gun deters the threat to go somewhere else quickly. There are situations where a .45 may be not enough gun. For example a heavily clothed and determined attacker high on PCP. There are also situations where a gun can be too much gun. For example a Beretta 96 or H&K USP .45 left at home when needed because it was too big or heavy for the person to want to carry, or in the hands of an elderly/disabled person with a weak grip/arthritis/etc. A .380 or .38 snubbie may even be enough caliber, but if the shooter can't hit with it, or the trigger guard is too small to fire with the gloves being worn, or any of a number of variables; it's all for nothing.
There is no generic gunfight, generic threat, or generic gun owner so there really can't be a generic answer. Each person who carries must decide how best to maximize their defense.
To me, this means carrying the biggest caliber and gun that you can shoot well and are willing to carry. Stoke it with the best defensive ammo you can find and that will function 100% in your carry gun. Keep your carry gun(s) well maintained and shoot them often. Then hope if it ever comes time to present and fire, hope you chose well.
Dirty Bob
Member
Wow, it's amazing to read through this thread!
I think that punkndisorderly summed things up very well (italics are mine):
Perhaps we can agree on a few points:
Dirty Bob
I think that punkndisorderly summed things up very well (italics are mine):
Perhaps we can agree on a few points:
- The .380 has worked effectively to stop aggression in some cases, but not in others.
- The round still appeals to some individuals due to its modest recoil, greater level of power than some calibers, and some popular guns (like the PPK, P-3AT, SIG P-232, some Makarovs, etc.) that fire it.
- No matter what we say, each of us must make our own choice(s), and if put to the test on some dark night, we only have ourselves to blame for those choices.
Dirty Bob
bmorgil
Member
.380 stopping power
This conversation ,though interesting has no end. Everyone who has responded is correct in some form. The point is clear. Learn to shoot. Practice. Carry. A .380 works best with FMJ IN MY OPINION. As stated by many, a poorly placed shot does nothing. A .380 lacks the ability to penetrate heavy clothing and still expand. It will do fine however in FMJ. The main objective cannot be forgotten. A weapon is better than no weapon. Aim well, fire and remove yourself from danger. The .380 PPK is the best carry gun I have ever had. Loaded with FMJ it penetrates deep and causes pain. This is called distraction. Again, aim well fire repeatedly and find good cover. Only a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 or larger
(with a well placed torso or head shot) will immediately stop most trouble. The .380's are very easy to conceal (therefore you will probably carry them) and are light and will kill. Stop worrying about what is going to work if you can't shoot and use what you will carry.
Bob
This conversation ,though interesting has no end. Everyone who has responded is correct in some form. The point is clear. Learn to shoot. Practice. Carry. A .380 works best with FMJ IN MY OPINION. As stated by many, a poorly placed shot does nothing. A .380 lacks the ability to penetrate heavy clothing and still expand. It will do fine however in FMJ. The main objective cannot be forgotten. A weapon is better than no weapon. Aim well, fire and remove yourself from danger. The .380 PPK is the best carry gun I have ever had. Loaded with FMJ it penetrates deep and causes pain. This is called distraction. Again, aim well fire repeatedly and find good cover. Only a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 or larger
(with a well placed torso or head shot) will immediately stop most trouble. The .380's are very easy to conceal (therefore you will probably carry them) and are light and will kill. Stop worrying about what is going to work if you can't shoot and use what you will carry.Bob
KingMedicine
Member
Ya know, i think i would rather not get shot by any said calibers. If you wanna carry a .380, then carry it.
This is a whole "Chicken or egg" arguement. People either like it, or they dont. Its a pretty good read tho at work when your bored.
This is a whole "Chicken or egg" arguement. People either like it, or they dont. Its a pretty good read tho at work when your bored.
searcher451
Member
Sung to the Star Wars theme: "Caliber Wars ... nothing but Caliber Wars ... those ol' darn Caliber Wars ... da da da daaaaah"
The .22 is plenty enough caliber, with plenty of examples through recent history. What makes you think that a well-placed .380 is not?
The .22 is plenty enough caliber, with plenty of examples through recent history. What makes you think that a well-placed .380 is not?
This was a great read with a lot of excellent insight and information which is the reason I am replying to this thread instead of starting a new one.
I carefully read 90% of the previous 7 pages and skimmed the remaining 10%.
In most of the situations I exercise in my head, where I would need to protect myself using force/ deadly force, there is a 15' or less personal space radius.
I know there are lots of exceptions to this, but for my sake lets just assume 15'.
While shot placement was discussed, I am still uncertain about something.
Maybe this is a question that belongs in the "oh, we do not talk about that" category. I am not privy to the ethics of such things.
With that said, why has no one suggested to shoot at the bad guy's head?
Is that a no no? Are we not supposed to shoot there?
Wouldn't a .380 90 grain FMJ placed in the center of the bad guy's upper nasal bridge/ lower forehead be a one stop shot? That is a pretty easy shot at 15' or less. How about 5 shots to the head?
Please keep in mind that I am not requesting advice on a one stop shot.
My question concerns head shot placement ethics (if any) and its effectiveness using the .380
I carefully read 90% of the previous 7 pages and skimmed the remaining 10%.
In most of the situations I exercise in my head, where I would need to protect myself using force/ deadly force, there is a 15' or less personal space radius.
I know there are lots of exceptions to this, but for my sake lets just assume 15'.
While shot placement was discussed, I am still uncertain about something.
Maybe this is a question that belongs in the "oh, we do not talk about that" category. I am not privy to the ethics of such things.
With that said, why has no one suggested to shoot at the bad guy's head?
Is that a no no? Are we not supposed to shoot there?
Wouldn't a .380 90 grain FMJ placed in the center of the bad guy's upper nasal bridge/ lower forehead be a one stop shot? That is a pretty easy shot at 15' or less. How about 5 shots to the head?
Please keep in mind that I am not requesting advice on a one stop shot.
My question concerns head shot placement ethics (if any) and its effectiveness using the .380
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes it would.
But it is not recommended you try it for a couple of reasons.
First, the frontal skull plate is one of the hardest & thickest bones in the human body, and it is often presented to you at an angle that promotes a bullet glancing off. Aim at the eye sockets and miss by an inch or two?
You got a very PO'd BG with a headache & a bloody forehead.
Second, the head is the hardest target there is to hit, because it is always moving during a high-stress confrontation.
Nobody is just going to stand there and let you shoot at their head until you get lucky and hit it.
COM shots are recommended because it is mostly relatively soft tissue, and even if you miss 6" or 8" one way or the other, you are still going to hit something very important.
rc
But it is not recommended you try it for a couple of reasons.
First, the frontal skull plate is one of the hardest & thickest bones in the human body, and it is often presented to you at an angle that promotes a bullet glancing off. Aim at the eye sockets and miss by an inch or two?
You got a very PO'd BG with a headache & a bloody forehead.
Second, the head is the hardest target there is to hit, because it is always moving during a high-stress confrontation.
Nobody is just going to stand there and let you shoot at their head until you get lucky and hit it.
COM shots are recommended because it is mostly relatively soft tissue, and even if you miss 6" or 8" one way or the other, you are still going to hit something very important.
rc
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Some people just hate the number 380. The fact of the matter is, stopping power is a mith. It is all about bleeding and no mater what you are shot with the human body has about 15 to 20 seconds of run time because of excess oxygen in the blood after the heart stops. So no matter what you shoot the bad guy with, if he wants you bad enough you will have to deal with him for at least 15 seconds, unless shot in the head or spine.
As stated by other members the 380 is so close to many other cartridges, same diameter as .38, .38 special, 357 magnum .002 smaller than a 9MM but all of those are great bad guy stoppers.
I love my .380
As stated by other members the 380 is so close to many other cartridges, same diameter as .38, .38 special, 357 magnum .002 smaller than a 9MM but all of those are great bad guy stoppers.
I love my .380
This argument comes up often and I always think of the Miami FBI shootout when it does.
Most people here are aware of the FBI Miami shootout with Platt and Matix. If you are not familiar with this you can read the account here...http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Despite receiving what has been described as an unsurvivable wound from a 9mm pistol Michael Platt was still able to kill two FBI agents and wound five others. Platt had 223 rifle.
The 9mm Silvertip bullet fired by an FBI agent that hit Platt expanded, penetrated completely through his upper arm, entered his chest cavity and severed a major artery and than penetrated his lung and despite receiving this unsurvivable wound along with other wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting for 1-1/2 minutes.
In this case 9mm didn't make the difference.
It's all about being lucky enough to hit the right spot or having a rifle.
Most people here are aware of the FBI Miami shootout with Platt and Matix. If you are not familiar with this you can read the account here...http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Despite receiving what has been described as an unsurvivable wound from a 9mm pistol Michael Platt was still able to kill two FBI agents and wound five others. Platt had 223 rifle.
The 9mm Silvertip bullet fired by an FBI agent that hit Platt expanded, penetrated completely through his upper arm, entered his chest cavity and severed a major artery and than penetrated his lung and despite receiving this unsurvivable wound along with other wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting for 1-1/2 minutes.
In this case 9mm didn't make the difference.
It's all about being lucky enough to hit the right spot or having a rifle.
WardenWolf
member
I personally chose to compromise, and got a Makarov in 9x18. A little more powerful than a .380, and some loadings approach .38 Special in power. Some commercial Makarovs do exist in .380, but the original military loading is better and more convenient (ammo is much cheaper and easier to find). The way I look at it, the .380 is the bare minimum you should consider carrying. If you can do better, you should, but the .380 will do the job if it's what you have. I'd personally take a compact 9mm or .40 over a .380, or the 9x18 Makarov as I did.
easyg
Member
If bullet diameter was the determining factor then a .38 Special would have the same effect as a .357 Magnum, which is certainly does not!
Guns and more
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I think NOBODY should carry a .380.
Maybe then I can find ammo for mine.
Maybe then I can find ammo for mine.
gmh1013
Member
Unless its a through the head or heart shot shot any caliber may take 2-3-4 shots to stop some BG
I did not read the entire thread so I don't know if someone made this point already.
Comparing the 380 and 38 Special can be misleading.....even if you have very similar energy level (~200 ft/lb) the typical 38 Special slug is 158 gr. vs. 90 gr. for the 380 (same caliber) so the SD of the 38 Special bullet is much higher (.177 vs. .102) and that usually means much better penetration capabilities.
Comparing the 380 and 38 Special can be misleading.....even if you have very similar energy level (~200 ft/lb) the typical 38 Special slug is 158 gr. vs. 90 gr. for the 380 (same caliber) so the SD of the 38 Special bullet is much higher (.177 vs. .102) and that usually means much better penetration capabilities.
NMGonzo
Member
Cabelas is your friend.
stinger 327
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Has anyone here seen that Desert Eagle Micro with a teflon finish? It's a .380 DAO but it is a real beauty.
Yes I have one and its 100% reliable and accurate at close range, but for me the Diamondback is more comfortable to shoot and more accurate at all distances.
stinger 327
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Wow now that is beautiful. What is a Diamondback?
dogtown tom
Member
It is scientific fact that the .380 is sadly lacking as a self defense round.
That's why I prefer the 9mm Browning Short instead.
.
That's why I prefer the 9mm Browning Short instead.
.
stinger 327
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Of course I agree but it is another piece of eye candy. I got NAA mini rev. .22LR, .22 MAG, Baretta 21 .25 ACP, Baretta Tomcat .32 ACP, up to .45 which I like the best as far as accuracy goes.It is scientific fact that the .380 is sadly lacking as a self defense round.
That's why I prefer the 9mm Browning Short instead.
.
stinger 327
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For the .380 which load is the best load for stopping?
I have been told that since mouseguns are just that they usually don't have enough velocity to expand so they maybe useless in hollow point.
Use full metal jacket then you get the full benefit of the penetration so there a better chance of penetrating a vital organ and feeding in auto action.
Shooting into a 2 x 4 piece of wood I found the Magsafe the most devistating looking in damage. These type of fragible rounds have been criticized as not having enough penetration but only produce large surface wounds.
I have been told that since mouseguns are just that they usually don't have enough velocity to expand so they maybe useless in hollow point.
Use full metal jacket then you get the full benefit of the penetration so there a better chance of penetrating a vital organ and feeding in auto action.
Shooting into a 2 x 4 piece of wood I found the Magsafe the most devistating looking in damage. These type of fragible rounds have been criticized as not having enough penetration but only produce large surface wounds.
stinger 327
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An SFPD motorcyle officer was killed in 1983 in San Francisco on a busy street (Van Ness Ave.) while conducting a traffic stop. The guy he stopped got into a wrestling match and managed to pull out a .25 Raven and shot the officer once in the head which proved fatal.
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