Dogs & Ethics

[Art Eatman]

I'm all for it. Homo sap has been hunting with dogs since first we got dogs.

Bird dogs. Deer dogs. Lion dogs. Hog dogs. Bear dogs. What's the basic problem from an ethics standpoint?

The objections stem mostly from today's chopped up land ownership. Hard to keep deer dogs inside just one tract, since deer can't read property titles--nor can the dogs. But that's not an ethics deal.

If the hunting take is in balance without the use of dogs, there's no justification in using them as a hunting tool. Seems to me. The issue is then one of the basic enjoyment of hunting with dogs. Read MacKinlay Kantor's "The Voice of Bugle Ann".

One thing to consider as you think about it--and please think, rather than emote --is that there is a difference between not doing something because it's not your style and not doing something because of ethics issues. There are lots of things I won't do in hunting, but it's not an ethics thing so much as it's just not what I want to do.

Art

 

['Card]

It will be interesting to see the responses to this one.

Some of my best friends hunt deer with dogs. Personally? I'm not comfortable with it so I don't.

Does that make me a more ethical hunter than they are? Not in the least. In fact, they're some of the most ethical hunters I know.

That's why I don't care much for conversations about so-called hunting ethics. Way too much of it is based on personal experience and personal preferences. "What I do is ethical, and therefore if you do something different, it must be unethical." People like that enjoy waving the 'righteous indignation' flag way too much for me to take them seriously.

 

[Jalexander]

I'm for it, as long as you respect the rights of property owners. For me the problems come in when folks cross your property lines while 'coon hunting' and stir up the cattle, leave trash around, et cetera. But since people do that anyway, dogs or no, I certainly can't blame it on the dogs.

James

 

[H&Hhunter]

Any activity can be done correctly and with a strong regard for ethics or it can be done in a slovenly unethical manner.

One of the things that sets a houndsmen apart from other hunters is the knowledge and the care and the expense that goes into training caring for and working a pack or even a single dog.

People have many misconceptions about dog hunting for big game. At least in the arena of bear, lion and hog where my primary dog experience rests.

The dog is used to track and bay an animal. sometimes the chase (referred to as the "race" in dog hunter circles) is short. But more often than not it takes many miles of sweat a labor just to get to a place where the dog will "strike" a hot track. Once the race starts it often lasts, many miles and through very tough terrain. It is one of the most physically demanding outdoor activities on the planet.

My longest ever bear chase went 12 miles as the crow flies. But when you add in all the ups and downs and curviest it was more than 20 miles by the fat hunters foot.

Many times when you catch a critter it isn't the one you are looking for so you simply pull the dogs back and let it loose. In fact dog hunting is a true form of catch and release big game hunting.

Here is the fly in the ointment for a lot of hunters. We as a group have become confused with the difference between hunting and shooting. Many hunters think that hunting is making an incredible long-range shot in impossible conditions with a lovingly tuned and preened rifle. While that may well be part of the hunting experience for many it is not hunting, by definition it is shooting which is merely a component of hunting.

Shooting a treed critter does not allow one to use their carefully acquired and painfully cultured shooting ability. The shots tend to be easy and at close range. Which in my humble opinion is the same thing a hunter should be trying for in any hunting circumstance. If you can get closer get closer if you can get steadier get steadier. It makes for fewer wounded animals.

With that in mind here is the crux of it for me. A dog hunt in general is a much more difficult physical experience than your average spot and stalk hunt. The shot tends to be fairly non dramatic. The knowledge factor is very small for the average client hunter. The houndsmen will have a very specific and very strong knowledge set.

So the turns offs for the many are, they are along for the ride unless they've got a strong background in hound hunting and know how much skill really goes into effectively using a hound pack. They won't be making a long range challenging shot. They have a misconception about how easy and non challenging it will be to "just let the dogs out and then walk up to a tree and shoot something."

The last of course being flagrantly false despite the best efforts of anti hunting groups the world over.

Oh and in regards to the unchallenging shots you wouldn't believe some of the give me shots I've seen hunters miss on treed critters. You see not everybody is at the top of their game after a 14 hour stroll through the steep part of the Rockies. And then try to shoot Mr. Bruin from the top of a swaying tree 30 or 40 yards up with their new .44 hand slapper.

 

[marksman13]

I have no qualms about hunting any game animal with dogs, as long as it is done with respect to local land owners. I feel as though hunters who utilize dogs to hunt any animal should ensure that they have a large enough tract of land to ensure that the hunt stays on their property. There is nothing more agggrevating than sitting in the stand, watching deer feed in a green field and having a pack of dogs from the adjacent property run them off.

I understand that this may happen from time to time no matter how much land a dog hunter owns, and once in blue moon is not a problem. People who repeatedly ignore posted signs do annoy me, however.

That said, there is nothing more enjoyable than hearing a pack of beagles in hot pursuit of a rabbit, or watching a well trained Lab retieve ducks. I don't anyone to get the idea that I am against using dogs to hunt. Like Art said, it is only natural for our companions to follow us into the woods and the fields. I just believe that a little respect goes a long way towards promoting a positive attitude.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Hunting w/dogs

The very first hunting trip I was ever on, was with a neighbor and his 'coon hounds when I was about 8yo. I will never forget it as long as I live.

I 'gree with Art--"I don't do that" ≠ "I won't do that."

The antis would like nothing better than to see us split into a lot of hissy factions, each one against all the others. Outdoorspeople in general have a lot more in common and a lot more to lose, in common, than they have in their disparate groups.

 

[buck460XVR]

Walkin' up behind a dog staunch on point is got to be one of the prettiest things in the hunting world.....and just cause the dog tells you it's there don't necessarily mean it's in the bag. I 've gotten more satifaction over the years watchin' my gun dogs work than I have from shootin' over them. Their abilities still surprise me everytime I have the opportunity.

 

[skidooman]

hunting upland game with a good pointer is an amazing thing to watch. this lion hunt that i went on behind dogs was one of the coolest hunts ive ever been on. it was also the most challenging hunt ive EVER been on. and the guide said "oh that was an easy hunt." due to the fact that it was in about a foot and a half of snow at about 8000-9000 feet in elevation, and ONLY being about 4 miles.

 

[Striker]

Nothing is much better then working a good bird dog in my opinion, but hound hunting be it for rabbit, deer, hog or any other game critter doesn't appeal to me.

Having said that, I have no issue with those that do and support their choice in doing so. Just because I don't care for it, doesn't mean its wrong.

It's sorta like horses too. I'm in amongst a bunch of fox hunters here in VA, beautiful animals and great folks. I don't judge the fact that can't do any roping and cutting work, and they don't judge the fact that I can't jump 6 ft fences, ride what passes to them as proper saddle, (Where do you take a wrap of rope on a saddle without a horn?), or wear fancy britches & hats. But what we do have in common is that I chase birds and they chase fox on the same land.

I suppose my point boils down to what Smokey Joe said:

The antis would like nothing better than to see us split into a lot of hissy factions, each one against all the others. Outdoorspeople in general have a lot more in common and a lot more to lose, in common, than they have in their disparate groups.

Bears some thought maybe?

 

[DogBonz]

Birds with dogs...

yea sure.

Deer with dogs I think is a bit cruel. The dogs will run a deer until it collapses from exhaustion. Now that can’t be a fun way to go. Not only that, but as I understand it, and I could be wrong, but that means that the meat will be full of lactic acid, which does not taste good.

 

[Picknlittle]

I guess for the issue of dog usage becomes one of local tradition or accepted culture.

I was raised in western Ky. and now live in middle Tn. about 40 miles from my home town. Dogs are used for birds, rabbits, coons and even squirrels pretty much but not for deer. I do accept that in different regions, things are done differently.

By the same token, black tail deer hunting in the cascade mountains of Washington is very different from whitetail hunting in here. Some might think it unethical to sit in a tree stand in at the edge of a corn or bean field deer to step out.

The most unethical thing one can do in my opinion is take risky, long range shots that are more likely to result in a wounded deer left to die in the woods. Sort of like the bench shooter in that video clip making the 890 yd kill. That's just not responsible hunting. It's nothing more than target shooting at live animals. That truely gets my goat.

 

[Art Eatman]

Ruark probably wrote one of the better descriptions of deer hunting with dogs, in "The Old Man and the Boy".

Deer tend to circle back, not take off and run across country. So, hunters take stands in likely areas. Dogs find deer; chase deer. Deer circles past the waiting hunter. Odds are the deer hasn't run all that far.

Years back I watched from across the Appalachicola river as a doe evaded dogs on the other side. I heard all the baying and walked to where I could look. The doe came to the river bank and worked her way downstream maybe 50 yards and then back up into the brush. The dogs located her again, so she swam across the river, coming out quite near me. I'd guess a 200-yard swim. She shook herself, wagged her tail, and walked off into the brush. She didn't appear to be anywhere near exhausted.

FWIW, Art

 

[Art Eatman]

One more dog/deer story and I'll shut up.

I was once driving US 98, east from US 319 toward Perry, Florida, through the Appalachicola National Forest.

Florida hunting rules were that dog hunters couldn't begin until noon. So, about 11:30 or so, there were pickups strung out for several miles, with hunters and dogs. I dunno, over a hundred trucks, typically with two or three guys per truck.

Hard for me to believe that those mostly-backwoods Crackers thought that a chased deer was bad eating. Personally, IMO they probably ate deer meat all year 'round. (You have to have lived around that general area to know those folks.)

Art

 

['Card]

I've never bought into the adrenaline thing too much. I trade favorite cuts of venison with a buddy of mine who hunts with dogs all the time. His venison tastes about the same as mine, as far as I can tell. Occasionally better, because the deer he kills are usually cornfield-fed, while mine usually grow up eating acorns and such.

I've gone with them a few times and watched how they do it. The dogs are trained to get on the deer's trail, and then turn it back in kind of circle - or maybe they just do that naturally, I'm not sure. At any rate, they listen for the dogs, take a guess at where the deer are coming, then go charging hell-for-leather across these fields to get in position. They hunt with shotguns to limit their range and reduce the chance of hitting one of their dogs.

When it all works the way it's supposed to, you're standing there when the deer break from cover and often come running full-blast right towards you. You have to wait until they get fairly close, and then open up on 'em as they go by. You'd think, from the way I describe it, that they probably miss or wound a lot of deer, but they don't. Those guys were some damned good shots, and they've been doing this sort of thing for years. The fact that you've got 4 or 5 guys standing there in a line blazing away like hell probably has something to do with it too.

So anyway, it's a hell of a lot of fun, but not really my thing. I like stalking, being sneaky, reading sign, tracking, solving a puzzle, and solitude when I hunt. Hunting with the dogs definitely isn't something I could do on a regular basis, but I enjoy going with friends who do it every once in awhile.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I started the war in the other thread, I guess, with my opinions on the subject....

 

[Bwana John]

Reminds me of a Big Chesapeke Bay Retrevier (Ol' Bub)that a packer I worked for owned.

The dog was a great retreiver on waterfowl, and was really making a name for himself on upland birds when his owner started guiding pack trips into the Sierra Nevada with deer hunters.

By the 2nd deer shot he knew exactly what the game was, all you had to do was follow him untill he pointed (and he almost NEVER ran, he "ambled" he was a just big somewhat goofy, lazy, waterdog), then you sent him into the brush, and shoot the Buck (always a buck) as it ran out of the bushes. Old Bub would then find the dead buck and try his hardest to drag it back to you.

Kind of a funny thing though, in that area hunting deer traditionly with dogs (by running them) was NOT "ethitical or legal", but when people found out about the "deer dog" it was concidered OK, because he used traditional bird technique i.e. point/flush/retreive.

 

[308win]

Dogs have a traditional and cherished role in hunting. I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive. Neither do I support allowing the dogs to tear a treed animal apart in the name of sport - this is nothing more than sadism to both the dog and the quarry. Justifying it as instinct is trying to put lipstick on a pig.

 

['Card]

I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive.

Bravo! Well done. No qualifiers. Nothing to specify that it's just your personal opinion. Oh, and the gratuitous use of an insulting term (nimrod) to describe anyone who disagrees and participates in activities you disapprove of? Perfection.

[quote='Card]...people waving the 'righteous indignation' flag[/quote]
Classic example. Practically a textbook case, 308. Thank you. Just in the nick of time, too. We were all in mortal danger of actually having an intelligent, reasoned discussion on a divisive issue. I appreciate you nipping that in the bud for us.

 

[308win]

What would you call them sportsmen? I appologize for assailing your sensibilities but when I see a segment where in the guide and his client turn dogs wearing locating collars loose to tree and hold an animal overnight I have a hard time recognizing the sport in that. But then that is me.

 

[longrifleman]

One more dog/deer story and I'll shut up.

Aw, come on Art. I'm pretty sure you have a couple more stories stashed somewhere. They're worth twice the price of admission.

I do not agree on ethical grounds with use of dogs and tracking devices to tree game and keep it treed while some nimrod and his guide finally arrive.

Spoken like someone who has never coon hunted in his life. Until you've actually done some of this, you have no idea how evenly matched the dogs and most other animals are. What chance does a deer ambushed from 400 yds away have? Actually, more than most non-hunters realise, but almost no hunters think that is unethical if you are capable of the shot.

In the Bible and in legend, Nimrod (Standard Hebrew נִמְרוֹד Nimrod, Tiberian Hebrew נִמְרֹד Nimrōḏ), son of Cush, grandson of Ham, great-grandson of Noah, was a Mesopotamian monarch and "a mighty hunter before Yahweh".

If only I was a mighty hunter.

 

[308win]

I have coon hunted with my grandfather and we never left dogs on tree and never forced the coon out for the dogs to rip to pieces. When we got to the tree I was in charge of the light and granddad would shoot the coon between the eyes so the hide wasn't ruined. We also spent more than one night locating a dog that had ran off to the next county and were fortunate enough never to lose a dog. I have also been waist deep in very cold water when a dog chased the coon into the creek to keep the dog from getting drowned - some might think my granddad thought more of his dogs than me but that never crossed my mind at the ripe age of 11 or 12, it was just something you did.

Deer hunting with dogs is something I have never been exposed to other than through reading so I can't say that I would or wouldn't enjoy it; I am not much of a deer hunter as it is.

My dad and uncles and I used to bird (quail) hunt with and without dogs. The dogs made the job easier and you seldom lost a down bird. Unlike some hunters we never hunted a covey to the last bird which was easy enough to do with a good dog. On the other hand, those hunters didn't hunt our land nor the neighbors as they would like as not also be the kind of hunter who would bust down your fences, hunt in fields that livestock was using, and generally conduct themselves inappropriately in other ways - at least that was my observation.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Deer with dogs I think is a bit cruel. The dogs will run a deer until it collapses from exhaustion. Now that can’t be a fun way to go. Not only that, but as I understand it, and I could be wrong, but that means that the meat will be full of lactic acid, which does not taste good.

Not true.

When I lived in Virginia, I was a member of a club that leased 6,000 acres. Under the terms of membership, I had to participate in a certain number of "cooperative" hunts -- hunts with dogs -- each year.

The deer merely keep moving in front of the dogs -- the dogs rarely get close enough to see a deer, and most of what they do is bark and trail. Typically, the deer will pass your stand some 10 to 20 minutes ahead of the dogs, moving slowly and calmly and turning back and letting the dogs go past.

The key question is, what is the impact on numbers of deer? If dogs were as bad as all that, there would soon be no deer in the country. But that ain't so!!

Virginia had so many deer that they tried everything to raise the bag -- including selling extra deer tags for $12.00 for two deer! They even surveyed the hunt clubs -- and got an interesting finding. The limit was "one a day" and hunters explained if you killed a deer in the morning hunt, you couldn't hunt in the afternoon. And the success of a cooperative hunt is related to the numbers of hunters.

The Virginia Fish and Game Department changed the rules to "Two deer a day!"

 

[BIGR]

Birds with dogs does make it easier than just stomping down the woods. Heck yea I have used beagles on my rabbit hunts. Deer hunting is different though. I prefer to stalk deer or to stand hunt. If someone else likes using dogs for deer hunting then thats their cup of tea.

 

[Smoke]

I got no problem with it.

Smoke

 

[MinScout]

Men and dogs have hunted together since there have been men and dogs. I think I'm a very ethical hunter, but I differ with many of these "new-age nimrods" who frown on pursuing game with dogs. The only qualms I have are with the use of electronic collars and walkie talkies.