Dogs & Ethics

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'Scuse my ignorance: Do electronic collars have a transmitter? If so, seems to me that's a good thing. If you're hunting in new country and wind up a dozen or more miles from the starting point and the dogs are a mile or three away, the dog knows neither the way to the truck nor can he hear a call.

Lost dog = Bad deal. Triangulate and find the dog?

Still and all, there's no style of hunting that cannot be done in some sort of cruel manner or cheating form or other unethical style.

Shouldn't confuse what's done with how it's done.

In this particular for-instance, it seems to me that .308 is looking at the how instead of the what.

As for opinions, my opinion is that sarcasm and name-calling are unethical. :)

Art
 
Any number of strategies we use afield can be thought of as unethical. It is unethical to put out fake ducks and call a duck call to lure the duck into range? Is that "fair chase"? How about goose decoys? Is it fair chase to sit at an automatic feeder that feeds corn twice a day to ambush deer as they come to the feed? I do it, only way I can hunt on 20 acres successfully unless i got REAL lucky, and it's legal in Texas. Once I was hunting up in New Mexico, talking to a local. He says, "Yeah, them Texas War Wagons ain't legal up here". "You Texans come up here with 'em, you know, seat over the cab 20 feet in the air, drive down the road and spot deer to shoot from the road?" Well, in Texas on private ranches this is both legal and popular on private ranch roads. I've done it, twice, on a day hunt with a guide. Not really my cup of tea, but hey, it's legal!

What works in one area of the country don't work for squat in another. The kind of spot and stalk hunting that I really enjoy that I've done out in Art's part of our great state just simply doesn't work down here in the brush and high grass where you can't see 100 yards. Feeder watching is about the only way to hunt whitetail around here and it's overwhelmingly the popular choice. A whole industry of feeders and stands has grown up around it. Yet in other states it's outlawed as "unethical baiting". Well, I don't live in other states.

If you think hunting with dogs is unethical, that's your opinion and you have a right to hunt any way you want. But, be aware that others don't share your opinion and in other parts of the country, chasing game with dogs is great sport. It's not legal in Texas to chase deer with dogs, but I think there are places where it is. I would try it where it is legal. I'm not going to do ANYTHING that is illegal where I'm hunting, because, well, that would definitely be unethical as well as illegal. If the game department allows it for game management and uses it as a method, who am I to argue?
 
Dogs increase productivity. Some people have an issue with that and others don't. I don't. Good beagles on scent, or pointers and retrievers in action are a sight to behold...and a joy to hunt with. I've never owned a hunting breed, but fortunately, I've hunted many times with those who do, and it's a lot of fun.
We can't use dogs here for deer hunting though, and a few guys I know will shoot any dog they see running deer....of course they might shoot the deer first. I have one friend who would probably shoot his own beagles if he caught them running deer.
 
I've never hunted with dogs. And I'm in prime dog hunting territory. Waynesboro, Georgia calls itself the Bird Dog Capital of the world. Big field trial annually at the Di-Lane Plantation. Lots of deer hunting with dogs.

Hats off to the coon hunters. Some of my best nights in deer camp have been spent listening to coon hunters in the swamps trying figure out where in the hell they were.

About the only concern I've ever had with dog hunters is lost dogs on my hunting property. I didn't want the deer chased. But then, all of the lost dogs I've ever seen on my property weren't chasing deer. They were lost, knew it, and were looking for the truck, the kennel, the owner, and FOOD. Simple solution was to call the dog, feed it, read the information on the collar, call the owner, and return the dog.
 
I think we have a real problem when something that's legal is disparaged by other hunters. Kinda gets into the snobby trap vs skeet, pistol vs benchrest thing.

When I was a kid, we fox hunted with dogs. Some of my best memories were being with my uncle sitting in the pickup and watching the dogs.

I figure the F&W guys ought to know more than I do, so if it's legal, have at it.

Maybe it's not my thing, but then it's not my business. You live your life to suit you, and I'll live mine to suit me.
 
IMHO, arguing ethics on an internet forum is like p*ssing into the wind.......STUPID.

We all have our own values in life depending on how and where we are raised and the type of ethics we have been exposed to. As long as one stays within the confines of the law, ethics is nuttin' more than a personal choice....kinda like ford vs chevy...bud lite vs miller lite. Ethics also change as we mature or society changes them for us.....for instance, when I was a pup, spanking at home AND at school were not only acceptable, but encouraged. Nowadays a parent/teacher will go to jail for hitting a child. How many of us, when we first started hunting as younguns shot at everything that was legal(and sometimes not) and as we matured changed our style to be more selective and more challenged?

We as hunters may not have to agree with one another, but we do need to support each other to protect our right to hunt, whether or not a certain hunting style is ethically acceptable to us or not.
 
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buck, one of the reasons for this website and this forum is education, imperfect as it may be.

I've noticed lots of newbies come here with questions. We struggle along to give answers as best we can.

If nothing else, discussing ethics makes people think--as cruel as that may be...

:), Art
 
buck, one of the reasons for this website and this forum is education, imperfect as it may be.

I've noticed lots of newbies come here with questions. We struggle along to give answers as best we can.

If nothing else, discussing ethics makes people think--as cruel as that may be...

, Art
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Art, you're correct, and the reason I am here is for information and education. I agree that the discussion of ethics makes people think, it's the arguing with the "my way or no way" attitude that I think is stupid. It seems it don't matter whether it's hunting ethics, politics, whose gun kills the best, religion or whether or not real bikers wear chaps, folks loose their respect for other folks' opinions and it ends up with a bunch of sour feelings. My point is that we as gun enthusiasts need to respect and understand our differences and appreciate what we have in common instead of focusing on personal views. I realized a long time ago that I can't truly judge a person from what I read on an internet forum.
 
The neighbor down the road had an Irish Setter that was a pet not a working dog as the neighbor didn't hunt much. The setter used to see me hunting and usually invited himself along. It was always an adventure because if it wasn't flora he was pointing it - turtles, ground sparrows, horse turds, rabbits, you name it - and he looked really good doing it. And on the rare coincidence when he was pointing birds forget retrieving.
 
There are a number of things that prolly shouldn't be discussed in an internet forum simply because of world representation. We run into the same things discussing music, and music styles. If one approaches a subject from an "I'm right and you're wrong" position, then the discussion is doomed.

First, ethics are like religion and politics. They don't do well in an open forum because so many views are represented and we are all right!,...From our personal perspectives.

As for legal issues, some states allow deer hunting with dogs, some don't. Some countries, states, counties, etc,..allow or disallow things based on local laws, traditions and other ethical/political positions, just as in some places it illegal to own a firearm,...even a shotgun.

Hunting methods too are regional too. It's good to discuss what is accepted and even the why's, but it would be wrong for me in middle Tn to dictate methods used in Mississippi. swamps, Montana mountains or Iowa corn fields.

It is interesting to hear how things differ throughout this global community.
 
It is interesting to hear how things differ throughout this global community.
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I'd buy that.

Remember, this is the internet, so people are free to post their views that differ from mine, wrong as they probably are...

:D

I appreciate the fact that we can have differing opinions here without getting into fist fights.

I don't go to opera, ballet, or musicals. Leaves more seats for the people that want to go.
 
I usta...

Redneck2--Good point.
I don't go to opera, ballet, or musicals. Leaves more seats for the people that want to go.
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I used to look down my nose @ golfers (even though I'm a Scot.) Then one day I realized: Hey, they're having fun, not harming anyone else, and they are NOT crowding up my fishing lakes! What am I complaining about???
 
From what I've seen here in our discussions, differing opinions are not the problem. It's emotion-based opinions that have no argument behind them that create a problem. "I feel..." may be fine for any one individual, but there's no argument to cause a change of view for any other person.

Problems really arise when somebody is in essence saying, "My feelings are so strong about this that I want you to quit living your life your way and do as I tell you." Which is what the anti-hunters are actually meaning when they try to get laws passed against our doing what we do.

Art
 
Some forms of hunting are more challenging or "sporting" for ME ....and that may be exactly what I'm looking for on occasion. Other times I want to narrow the odds of legally putting deer meat in the freezer.....and if that means hunting with dogs or over a previously baited area as allowed by law, I've done that. It may not be as "sporting" as a pure stalk......but then I've put good meat in the freezer and had some positive impact on a local ecosystem that at times is just too damn over-populated with deer. I've got no truck with anyone hunting with dogs.......Personally, however, I take no pleasure in seeing a pack of dogs rip apart a wild animal after a chase. But that's a whole nuther topic.

Also, I've learned different regions have particular hunting "do's and don'ts" beyond what's contained in the law ....unwritten ethics and traditions. Common sense dictates you honor those "rules" when you're in the other fellows backyard !

- Regards
 
Hunting With Dogs

I've been hunting with dogs my whole life - 50 years. Bird dogs are the only ethical way to hunt birds, especially waterfowl. A well-trained and enthusiastic dog will find many more downed and injured birds than the average hunter will take the time to look for. Upland birds - nothing prettier than a German Shorthair on point! Again with the retrieving thing and finding a downed/injured bird in tall grass or other cover.

Ran hound dogs on bears from S. California to SouthCentral Alaska 20+ years. In most cases, the only way the average hunter is going to find a bear in the woods. As far as tracking collars (locator collars) - back in the good old days, a man could take his dogs out and take a week, if that's what it took, to find all his dogs and whatever game he's hunting. In today's world, where the average man is lucky to get a weekend to go hunting, spending several days looking for lost dogs is unrealistic. Being able to locate your dogs when they are out of hearing with a locator collar is the quickest, most effective and even humane method of accomplishing that. It is not unheard of for a dog, during trapping season, to be inadvertantly caught in a trap, or lost, or for whatever reason drops out of the game due to injury, exhaustion, etc. A well-trained hound dog is worth in excess of $5000! Pretty good chunk of money to have to leave in the woods because you have to be at work Monday morning.

As to being ethical, why do you think there are so many different breeds of dogs? Even poodles are water retrievers, believe it or not!

Rant over.
 
February 15th, 2007, 08:41 AM #1
Art Eatman
Moderator


wrote:

Dogs & Ethics

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...

One thing to consider as you think about it--and please think, rather than emote --is that there is a difference between not doing something because it's not your style and not doing something because of ethics issues. There are lots of things I won't do in hunting, but it's not an ethics thing so much as it's just not what I want to do.

Art
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hmmmmm I'm not understanding the difference. Ethics are not like some codified law.


from: http://www.answers.com/topic/ethics-legal-term

'ethics, in philosophy, the study and evaluation of human conduct in the light of moral principles. Moral principles may be viewed either as the standard of conduct that individuals have constructed for themselves or as the body of obligations and duties that a particular society requires of its members.'
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To me, ethics are personal standards I apply only to myself ('not doing something because it's not your style'), or moral standards applied, under force of law, by the group, community, state, or nation, I belong to, and wish to remain with. These seem to me as arbitray as any perception can be.

Yes think about it. Ethics are what any given entity want them to be, at a particular moment, in time.


I think it valuable to learn to be nice to each other. If a friend invites me to go hunting, and I know he uses dogs, I am honest with him, I thank him for the invite, and tell him, that I simply do not enjoy hunting with dogs, but thanks anyway, and you have a great hunt. I see no problem here ... he does what he considers ethical, I do what I consider ethical, 'Different strokes, for different folks'.

The problems I see, is when one persons 'ethics' come in conflict with written law (lawyers). If an unleashed dog, no matter what it is doing, enters a persons property, I figure it is open season on that dog ... I've even read of it on these boards. I think that is ethical, how about you ?
 
here in North FL they let the dogs out the hunters sit in groups along the road bed in the back of trucks with shotguns loaded with buckshot.(its legeal here) the dogs run the deer through the swamp then back around till the deer runs across the road bed and thats when the hunterS shoot it. normally you will hear around 10-15 shots when they get one in shooting distance.

im not a big fan of it dog hunting deer. they have those deer so jacked up during the season its almost the only way to hunt them. this is both in the Still hunt and Dog hunt areas (which the dog hunters really dont care because im sure it was said before dogs nor deer know boundry lines)
 
I hunt roe deer with a Taxen (Dachshund). As they have short legs they never push the deer to fast and a good taxen will get the deer running in circles. First you must light a fire. Then you let the dog lose to pick up and start hunting a deer. Back to the fire to brew coffee and grill korv. Once refreshed with Coffee and korv you go to you stand and hope the deer runs by. Also hunt pheasant with a cocker spaniel. Hope to get a Slovensky kopov to train for the wild boar hunting later in the year. We have dogs here in sweden for Hunting everything from Bear to Pheasants. love hunting with dogs :D
 
Taxen

ReddogIII--Skoghund, may I come with Reddog and share the gasoline cost? I'll brew coffee & make omelettes, and in honor of hunting in Sweden, will shoot a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser (with which I got a deer here this year.) Dachshunds are courageous little dogs! I would really like to see one running a deer!

BTW, could you explain korv?
 
Hook, a re-phrasing might be that one should not confuse personal dislikes with ethics. That's been seen in these discussions.

I use "ethics" in this particular situation to mean the commonly accepted usage as regards "fair chase" and not poaching. It includes other issues such as "good of the species" in establishing allowable sizes or bag limits.

Art
 
Skoghund and Smokey Joe:
I, too, will be bringing my 6.5x55.

Art Eatman:

Talking about ethics and bag limits - as I said earlier, a good bird dog will find more wounded and downed birds than your average hunter is ever going to look for, therefore less wasted game.

About hound dogs and ethics - most of my experience is with treed game. Not every animal is harvested. This allows the hunter to pick and choose, and ethics are in the heart of the hunter. And, by the way, I teach Hunter Safety courses, and ethics is a big part of each class.
 
. Reddog 111 and smokey joe. Hunting deer with a dog starts on the 1st October. So pack your gear and the fire wood will be dry. Korv are sausages. Grill korv are the best
 
I've never actually hunted with dogs, although I did have one adventure, back some 35 years ago.

I had a really neat mixed-breed dog, mostly Dobie. He was sort of a do everything dog. Watch/guard, flush quail, track and catch when they hit the ground and bring it to me, unhurt.

I was horsebacking in the pasture one time, when the dog jumped a doe. Okay, I sez, let's chase. And we did. Boogity, boogity, boogity, let's go racing! The only problem was that the doe went into the mesquite brush. The dog went under the mesquite brush.

My horse, thinking this was all great fun, sailed right on into the mesquite.

That's really rough on clothing and skin. I looked like a walking advertisement for Johnson & Johnson's BandAids, the next day.

There are some things you only do once.

:D, Art
 
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