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Don't mess with Texas..... jewelry salesmen

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Drizzt, May 8, 2005.

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  1. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

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    LITTLE ROCK, Ark. Two Dallas jewelry salesmen who resisted an attempted robbery outside a Little Rock jewelry store in March were apparently well-armed.

    That's the testimony of a Little Rock police detective at a bond hearing yesterday for two men charged in the March 14th attempted holdup.

    Detective Linda Keel says all five guns confiscated after the botched robbery belonged to the two salesmen, and all 21 shell casings found at the scene were from those guns.

    Police had said at the time of the shooting that the two salesmen -- brothers Charles and Roy Hirschberg -- exchanged fire with the five robbers. Prosecutors say no charges will be filed against the salesmen because they acted within the law.

    The two men arrested, Raul Camaro and Jairo Martinez, remain in the Pulaski County Jail in Little Rock with bail set at one (M) million dollars each. A third suspect died at a hospital after the shootings, and two others remain on the loose.

    http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3309236
     
  2. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

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    5 guns at jewelry store robbery were salesmen’s, officer says
    BY JIM BROOKS ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE


    All five guns recovered from the scene of a jewelry store robbery in March belonged to two salesmen who opened fire after thieves placed knifes against the men’s throats, a Little Rock police officer testified Thursday.

    The detective’s testimony contradicted an initial account about the March 14 shooting outside Cecil’s Fine Jewelry at 10720 N. Rodney Parham Road.

    Police said at the time that the salesmen and the robbers exchanged gunfire. But test results show that all 21 shell casings recovered came from guns belonging to the salesmen, detective Linda Keel said at a bond hearing for two men arrested in the case.

    One thief was killed in the shooting, but no charges will be filed against the two salesmen because they acted within the law, prosecutors said.

    In addition, Keel testified, the salesmen "said they felt someone was firing at them, so they returned fire."

    The two salesmen, brothers Charles and Roy Hirschberg, both of Dallas, were licensed to carry concealed weapons, authorities said.

    Under cross-examination by defense attorney Bill James, who represents one of two men arrested in the case, Keel said the only weapon discovered in a getaway car was a knife used during the robbery. State and federal authorities speculated after the shooting that the robbers were part of an international ring of thieves that targets traveling jewelry salesmen. That possibility was not addressed during Thursday’s bond hearing for Raul Camaro and Jairo Martinez, who were arrested shortly after the holdup. Both remained in the Pulaski County jail on $1 million bond each.

    The Hirschbergs had just left the jewelry store and were sitting in the car fixing a broken cuff link when two men approached their vehicle, broke out the windows and held knives to their throats, Keel testified.

    Other robbers appeared and took from the back seat suitcases containing more than $600,000 worth of jewelry and loose gems.

    One of the getaway vehicles, a rented Ford Taurus, crashed on Rodney Parham Road, and the occupants scattered. One robber was pulled into a dark van. Camaro and Martinez fled on foot, and police arrested them on Walnut Valley Drive a few minutes later.

    Later that afternoon the van pulled up outside Southwest Regional Medical Center, where someone dropped off an injured man, later identified through fingerprints as Andre G. Felipe, 26, who died of a gunshot wound in the back.

    Police said at least one robber and perhaps as many as three others got away.

    In the days after the robbery, police referred to an exchange of gunfire outside the jewelry store, but all five guns recovered at the scene belonged to the Hirschbergs. Police speculated that the robbers might have taken some of the weapons from the salesmen during the robbery.

    "It was very confusing out there at the scene," Sgt. Terry Hastings said at the time. "The back window of the Taurus was busted out, and we had both victims saying they were shot at first."

    Hastings said Thursday that detectives had to wait until they received ballistics results from the state Crime Laboratory before they knew which weapons were involved.

    Chief Deputy Prosecuting Attorney John Johnson said that while no evidence shows that the robbers fired guns, the Hirschbergs acted reasonably.

    "The Hirschbergs said they heard a noise that they recognized as a gunshot before seeing the window of the Taurus shatter," Johnson said. "They returned fire, believing that they had been shot at."

    Little Rock defense attorney David Cannon, who represents Martinez, offered another possible explanation.

    "I believe the evidence will show that one of the Hirschbergs started firing and shot out the back window of the Taurus and the other one assumed that they were being fired upon, so he opened up," Cannon said, adding later that one of the salesmen emptied the clip of his 9 mm Glock semiautomatic and reloaded before firing more shots.

    Johnson said, however, that state law doesn’t require that people actually be fired upon before they are justified in using deadly force.

    "If you reasonably believe that your life is in physical jeopardy, then you’re justified in defending yourself," he said.

    Arkansas Code Annotated 5-2-206 states, in part, "a person is justified in using physical force upon another person to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person."

    The Hirschbergs couldn’t be reached for comment Thursday. Shortly after the shooting, Charles Hirschberg declined to talk about the robbery other than to say that he followed his insurance company’s advice on how to handle the situation.

    An insurance company representative, however, told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette that salesmen are urged not to resist in robberies.

    Prosecutors noted Thursday that the robbers could have used guns that have not be recovered. Revolvers, for instance, don’t eject casings after they are fired.

    The men also could have ditched weapons as they ran, or their weapons might have been in the van that was never found after the robbery, they said.

    But no bullets or bullet holes were found in the Hirschbergs’ car or near it, according to testimony Thursday.

    Camaro, 25, lists his birthplace as Madrid, Spain, and initially told police he was from New York City but didn’t provide an address. Martinez, 28, listed his birthplace as Mexico.

    He, too, didn’t give police an address, although he said he lived in Dallas.

    The men are scheduled for a June 15 trial. Each faces two counts of aggravated robbery, theft of property and one count of manslaughter in the death of Felipe.

    http://www.ardemgaz.com/ShowStoryTemplate.asp?Path=ArDemocrat/2005/05/06&ID=Ar00105&Section=Arkansas
     
  3. sm

    sm member

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    Interesting situation indeed. Hit very close to home, literally.

    In another life...well I think and do because of how raised in that other life...I know others on this board that know exactly of what I speak of.

    Sends chills up my spine...

    I may try and attend this trial if can....
     
  4. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Member

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    I always get a kick out of the fact that there are always signs restricting firearms when there's a gun show at Dallas Market Hall, but never when there's a gem & jewelry show there. :D
     
  5. B.FRANKlin

    B.FRANKlin Member

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    Strange, isnt it!

    That is wierd. But the same thing goes for Ohio gun shows; no loaded/concealed weapons in gun show. It might be some liberalist's idea(?) of restrictions on gun shows (the lesser of evils of Clintonism). (liberalism=communism=Clintonism) I don't go to jewelry shows.

    Historic Quote; "If I were to start a revolution, the first thing I would do is kill all of the lawyers."--Benjamin Franklin He was a very intelligent person.
     
  6. sm

    sm member

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    Before the Anatole was built, part of the market used to held in another hotel, they never had a problem with folks there either..then .Anatole was not a place to be a BG looking for trouble...he would get it. ;)

    Dallas is not the only market, nor is TX the only state that has certain sales reps with certain attitudes...

    Some sales reps piloted their own planes...this was way before TSA. Had more "thought" than getting a flight, or dealing with standing in line too...

    I may or may not have seen a 870 with "Aviation " on the receiver...word is , these pilots did not always land in an airport, they may land on private property and be picked up or borrow a vehicle and drive / be driven into town...*ahem* escorted if you will. ;)
     
  7. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Well, yeah, sure, but they were just doing jobs Americans won't do! Besides, we don't want to be labelled racists, do we?
     
  8. Godfather

    Godfather Member

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    Yeah, the point is to not let the guy shoot. Odds are if you don't let him get a shot of, you probably won't get hit.


    Sounds like the owners may have been a tiny bit trigger happy, but if I thought I was being shot at, I'd probably let a few extra off too.

    So two guys were firing five guns?
     
  9. GAC

    GAC Member

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    "The Hirschbergs had just left the jewelry store and were sitting in the car fixing a broken cuff link when two men approached their vehicle, broke out the windows and held knives to their throats, Keel testified."

    "'If you reasonably believe that your life is in physical jeopardy, then you’re justified in defending yourself,' he said."

    I'd say having a knife at your throat counts as physical jeopardy.
     
  10. Azrael256

    Azrael256 Member

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    Jewlery thieves can get pretty sophisticated, and pretty nasty. If I'm carrying around a million bucks in gems, I'd be pretty heavily armed, too.

    If these salesmen were particularly smart, I could see five guns. Pistols for close-in, make some standoff distance, and then something in a light thirty caliber for heavier fire. Maybe an AK clone or something. A shotgun would be nice, too. Also, think about the possibility that they either ran out of ammo for their primary weapons, or there was a malfunction. Gun runs dry, or jams up real good, just drop it and go for another.

    Anyway, that's all wild speculation, as it doesn't say that they actually used all five guns. Maybe one IWB and one at the ankle for each man, and one extra in the car.
     
  11. greg531mi

    greg531mi Member

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    Bad Shooting!!!

    I think it was bad shooting!!!

    Heck, they got only one!!! With 19 rounds????
     
  12. Edmond

    Edmond Member

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    We'd live in a sad place if we had to be attacked before we could defend ourselves. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Wingshooter

    Wingshooter Member

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    So if having one extra gun is a New York reload, then is having 5 an Arkansas reload???
     
  14. sm

    sm member

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    I know one fella that carries two Glocks in 10mm , 2 Bugs in 9mm and one J frame for deep concealment...we won't even mention what is in the vehicle. He travels alone most often.

    He is from Texas btw. BIG Texan btw. :)
     
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