Don't want to carry in church ? -- Church Shooting: 8 dead / 4 wounded (merged)

[warriorsociologist]

In GA, carrying in church is illegal...(or in any other "public gathering - loosly defined - for that matter). It's something that we are trying to change.

 

[Havegunjoe]

I carry even in church.

What makes anyone think they are safe in church as opposed to anywhere else? This isn't the first time something like this has happened. I read just several months ago where small church congregations in Texas were being robbed at gun point on Sunday mornings.

The one thing carrying a gun does is make ME feel safer. It may or may not protect me, depends on circumstances. I just hope that if I practice situational awareness and avoidance techniques like I should, and practice with my gun like I should, I can protect myself and my family if need be.

 

[stevelyn]

Unfortunately a lot of churches view lethal force as contradictory to Biblical teaching.

Then they are obviously not aware of what the Bible teaches about about self defense and lethal force. If they are missing the boat on that tidbit of basic information one can only imagine what else they don't have a clue about or are revising.

 

[Jacobus Rex]

There is no biblical law against being armed at "church". From the standpoint of the bible, the "church" is a body of people. A building is nothing more than that.

Historically speaking, I've been told that one of the jobs of a Baptist deacon was to levy a fine against or reprimand adult male church members that FAILED to own proper and well maintained arms. It was considered a failure to care for your family, your community, and your church. Most communities lacked a fort, therefore the local church was the normal meeting place in times of trouble. Those heavy "cross" opening type shutters on old churchs aren't just for decoration.

I haven't CCWed at church because I have not felt the need but don't see anything wrong with it. If I feel the need then I would do it. I'm a Christian 24/7 not just at church. By the same measure, I'm charged by the bible with the protection of my family 24/7 as well.

 

[Waitone]

The Christian church is not an historically pacifist organization. Let's leave it at that. In pre-colonial and colonial America people were armed, period. A frontier, any frontier, is not a safe place. We make a big mistake reading 21st century morality into 17th century America.

BTW, it was quite common for preachers to be paid with barrels of whiskey for services rendered. Another incorrect interpretation put to rest.

 

[grampster]

In Michigan those of us that "have our papers" are ordered not to carry in certain places. The irony is the places that we are prohibited are probably the best places to consider being armed for all the reasons ya'll in the choir understand.

Therefore, I carry concealed anywhere and everywhere that I think it would be wise to carry on the philosophy that I would rather they (po po) catch me with it than have the BG catch me without it. Make me a scoff law? Perhaps, but maybe someday I will be an alive scofflaw. I hope that it does not come to pass, but if it does, I'll at least be able to make a decision about what to do or not do, not just lay down and cover my head and hope not to die.

 

[possenti]

Members of a church that believe the end time is now, and they are going to be rewarded in heaven soon, are not likely to be the personality type that will actively defend themselves, since that behavior almost goes against the teachings of their church.

Flawed logic.

Although my particular religion doesn't dwell on the "end times", I personally believe that the world could end at any second. Does this mean that I would offer no resistance to a nut-job who's shooting up my church, so I could hurry up and die to get my "reward in Heaven"? That's certainly not my "personality type."

I will die when GOD decides, not when a whacked-out Prozac zombie does.

 

[aerod1]

I am a Christian (Anglican) who goes to church armed (CHL) every Sunday. I live in Texas where it is legal to carry in church. There are also several other men and women, in our parish, who practice their 2nd Amendment rights every Sunday. The reasons why should be obvious.
What a tragic event. I pray for that church and the affected families. May the peace of the Lord be with them all!!

Jim

 

[Rebeldon]

I'm a Presbyterian, and if there are any other Presbyterians out there, you'll be glad to read what the Westminster Larger Catecism says the Scriptures teach about the Sixth Commandment:

Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?

A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.[720]

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?

A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defence thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labour, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behaviour; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succouring the distressed and protecting and defending the innocent.

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defence; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

Basically, the Westminster Larger Catecism is saying that the 6th Commandment requires us to preserve our own lives and the lives of others, by a just defense against violence, and that we should not neglect the means, nor make the means unavailable to others.

I believe it is a duty of faith to have the means of defense.

 

[bud45]

I believe its 1 Timothy 5:8 that mentions that if a man doesn't provide for his own, he's worse than an infidel...and with the other translations out there, "provide" covers a lot of ground. I carry at church, the pastor and elders know it & approve- they are well aware of all the church shootings over the years, PLUS they are aware of the Arab-types that want Christians dead. As a former Board of Director member of my church (I stepped down for a much-needed rest), I provided building security for a number of years; now, it's personal security for myself & my family- and others, if need be. The law here mentions "where people gather" as a no-CCW area, but I have permission, so I carry...I pretty much carry everywhere except fed buildings & such.

Our church's windows have been shot several times over the years, BTW. Not that it could be prevented...happened when no one was around apparently. Happened between evening lock-up & morning opening. Typical cowardice, but I'm GLAD no one was attending when the incidents happened.

 

[Model520Fan]

This guy killed/wounded 12 people about as fast as he could pull the trigger--it was all point-blank range. With the exception of the time he took to reload, there wasn't much opportunity for someone to turn, draw, aim, and fire. You have to figure about 7-10 seconds from start to finish.

While I am a proponent of CCW and consider it a right which has been trampled by the State of Wisconsin, it's hard to figure how it would have been helpful in this particular case.

If you were related to one of the people killed after he reloaded, it might be easier for you to figure out.

 

[ninenot]

If you were related to one of the people killed after he reloaded, it might be easier for you to figure out.

As you can see, there are updates to this story which give significantly different time estimates than those in my original post.

Specifically:

1) The shooter went through 22 rounds.
2) Police now say that he consumed a full MINUTE while shooting/reloading
3) Some of the fire seems to have been aimed at the Pastor & his family

In addition, another poster indicated that (all things considered) it would have taken him about 5 seconds to take cover, draw, present, and fire.

Therefore, it seems that CCW AND a trained responder might have saved as many as 6 lives.

I am very sympathetic to the families--particularly to the Pastor's wife, still in critical condition, who will come out of the hospital and have to grieve for her husband and son.

 

[Sam Adams]

This Texas Jewboy carries a .45 and a spare mag to synogogue whenever he goes. Not only does the rabbi know, but he also carries (but not on Saturday-like I do). So do several others, including some ex-Israeli special forces types. We all practice - often. You won't be reading about a lot of defenseless dead victims at our place.

Oh, and anyone who is anti-gun in our congregation can pound sand. First, there will never be a 30-06 sign while this rabbi is there, but even if there is someday, I intend to have the means to most effectively defend myself and my family on my person, especially in a place where a lot of Jews are together - such gatherings are just too tempting for those level-headed practitioners of the Religion of Peace to avoid forever. The Torah and Talmud specifically command that one MUST defend one's life against an assailant, using any means necessary - not may, but must - and you're allowed to break virtually any religious law to do so. For some reason, most Jews don't know or understand that.

BTW, Rebeldon, the 6th Commandment does NOT say "Thou shalt not kill." It says, "Thou shalt not murder." Big difference. "Killing" a person or other living thing means that you have caused it to cease living. However, not all such acts are unlawful and/or immoral. The ones that are unlawful and/or immoral are called "murder." None of this, however, changes the validity of the other things you said. We have not only the right, but the duty, to defend our life.

 

[birdv]

Carry in church but then you can't get margaritas after church.

-J/K

I always carry in church. I need to buy a church pistol.

 

[P95Carry]

Guys - this has already become significantly off topic in regard to the degree of religious discussion. Sure the event occurred at a 'church' but beyond that let's not get into religion comparisons, bible quotes etc - (and ''nutjobs'' is also hardly a suitable metaphor in this subject matter) ... it will assuredly lead to thread closure.

 

[Rebeldon]

BTW, Rebeldon, the 6th Commandment does NOT say "Thou shalt not kill." It says, "Thou shalt not murder."

I was quoting the Westminster Catecism, and the only English version of the Bible the people that wrote the Westminster Confession and Catecisms had to quote from was the 1611 KJV, which says, "Thou shall not kill". Whether it says "kill" or "murder", when you compare scripture with scripture, the meaning is obvious. You have some who err by saying that capital punishment, or even killing an animal for food, is wrong, because it says, "Thou shalt not kill", so I definitely understand your desire for clarity.

Guys - this has already become significantly off topic in regard to the degree of religious discussion. Sure the event occurred at a 'church' but beyond that let's not get into religion comparisons, bible quotes etc...

I thought the issue was about whether or not to carry a pistol in church. This lends itself to discussing the diverse views regarding self defense with a firearm, and whether or not it is appropriate in church. For this topic to carry to its logical conclusion, it is in perfectly understandable that differing doctrinal positions are aired. When that happens, scripture is usually quoted.

 

[P95Carry]

I do agree - there are doctrinal aspects - thing is - any in depth religious discourse is now very much discouraged (check Guidelines ) - and so a thread such as this, whilst well worthy of discussion is very easily in breach of those rules. Added to which most may remember that such subjects can and have in past - quickly gone downhill - fast!

If there is a wish to delve deeper into these doctrinal and thus qualifying aspects - do take the subject over to APS where Oleg has made a Round Table for such things.

Not trying to spoil anyone's debating - just that it needs to be in right place.