Thibaut
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Bless him for being able to walk the walk.
Shooting at Texas Church Leaves Two Dead and One Injured, Gunman Shot By Armed Member
- Thread starter Aim1
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Bless him for being able to walk the walk.
Dan Patrick made some anti-gun rights statements after the last Texas mass shooting earlier in 2019. I am not going to give him any sort of credit for saying this when he is up for election in 2020. This might be better left to another discussion.
climbnjump
Member
Yep, from an interview that Mr. Wilson gave today, it turns out they were watching the perp from the time he entered the church.
https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1211730721171296256
SSN Vet
Member
And yet he managed to kill two parishioners. One a deacon holding a communion tray and the other a security team volunteer.
I want to see who this scumbag was.
OODA LOOP
If you’re not familiar with this then google and research it. Experiencing it is a real eye opener. You also need to be aware of and train for this as it applies to a deadly self defense situation. You spend too much time trying to decide what to do and you’ll be dead.
If you’re not familiar with this then google and research it. Experiencing it is a real eye opener. You also need to be aware of and train for this as it applies to a deadly self defense situation. You spend too much time trying to decide what to do and you’ll be dead.
Here he is. Also information on the victims and an interview with the guy who stopped it.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/r...e=y&akdevice=androidphone&sslEnabled=true&
CapnMac
Member
Apparently a felon with a number of convictions for armed assault in several states. Previously arrested for weapons violation in NJ. Not a penitent sort of person, really.
TikkaShooter
Member
That is a silly police drill.
Most people, no matter how they kid themselves usually will hesitate and hesitating gets them or others killed. A lot of trained soldiers hesitate before killing another person for the first time and don't ask me why.
Perhaps our upbringing causes us to hesitate.
As only one person was shooting; explain why because I certainly can't. I guess "good" training had them looking for additional targets; however, there was only one target. So why not neutralize target "numbah" one then sweep the area?
At that synagogue shooting; an unarmed DSII Vet screamed I'm going to kill you and attacked. After killing the Rabbi and an unarmed woman; the shooter ran from an unarmed man screaming I'm going to kill you. The shooter ran; again, go figure why.
Definitely a tragic situation and yes, the guard who engaged did one hell of a job. When an animal is killing others; one takes it down as expeditiously as possible; then and only then, look for target #2.
Jesse Heywood
Member
One point that has not been raised is the need to draw from a seated position. This is where a shoulder holster is a huge advantage. It could have saved the first guy.
The comment about reaching for a wallet reminded me that I used to carry a AMT .380 in a wallet holster.
The comment about reaching for a wallet reminded me that I used to carry a AMT .380 in a wallet holster.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
It's called muzzle discipline. At least two I counted were randomly sweeping a bunch of people.
TikkaShooter
Member
I'm not sure what it is called.
I spent 30 months in combat and I don't know what muzzle discipline means. I do know to neutralize whatever is putting the hurts on me or my team and neutralize the next threat as it presents itself.
What if the one who put the it down missed; the others sweeping would let more innocents get killed. They are good people; not Grunts.. However, if the first guy missed; how many others would have been killed or wounded.
When a shooter is killing innocents or members of my team; it is time to give it a dirt nap.
Simply said first and foremost neutralize the primary threat as it is the one doing all the killing; then, sweep the area for additional threats. If that is called muzzle discipline fine.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
entropy
Member
It's unavoidable in combat, or realistic training for combat.
Jim Watson
Member
Yes, it can be hard to teach a soldier to beware "the 180."
Jenrick
Member
Coming from the civilian LE side, along with some military. The other congregants who rushed towards the suspect after the fact had poor muzzle discipline, period. Yes there is no "safe direction"/"down range" in the real world. There is however a "safest direction possible," and at your fellow parishioners isn't it. If these folks haven't had any training/experience in a large crowd with guns, then mistakes happen (and fortunately everyone kept their fingers off the trigger), but that's what they are, mistakes. If you know that someone isn't a threat, then muzzeling them is a mistake, period. I'm sure the responding armed citizens, didn't think that 78 year old Gladys in the pew between them and the bad guy was an accomplice they simply locked onto the threat, and their muzzle awareness decreased.
At no time working in a military shoot house, a federal LE agency shoot house, or my own local agency shoot house, has it ever been okay to muzzle a known friendly. Doesn't matter if we're doing LE alarm call building search practice, or high-speed-low-drag sniper initiated explosive breaching hostage rescue training, you don't muzzle a known friendly. Unknowns yes, hostiles, absolutely, friendlies, no.
Working in a civilian context, with a large crowds is about as hairy as it can get to have a gun in your hand. Kudos to those who rushed to the sound of the gunfire. Lets just as a community of armed citizens work to be better about the mistakes that were made here, so that the inevitable next time, we aren't making the same ones.
At no time working in a military shoot house, a federal LE agency shoot house, or my own local agency shoot house, has it ever been okay to muzzle a known friendly. Doesn't matter if we're doing LE alarm call building search practice, or high-speed-low-drag sniper initiated explosive breaching hostage rescue training, you don't muzzle a known friendly. Unknowns yes, hostiles, absolutely, friendlies, no.
Working in a civilian context, with a large crowds is about as hairy as it can get to have a gun in your hand. Kudos to those who rushed to the sound of the gunfire. Lets just as a community of armed citizens work to be better about the mistakes that were made here, so that the inevitable next time, we aren't making the same ones.
entropy
Member
You never had a Gunny sitting in between the pairs of terrorist/hostage targets with a stopwatch in a door kicking shoot house? I did. I whizzed a subsonic 9mm right past his ear too, and learned some things about my Mom I didn't know, and also learned that I could do a lot more pushups than I thought I could. Every one of the Force Recon Marines, and the SF CPT and I that joined them for that door kicking session, muzzled the Gunny, because that's how he trained his men. Most realistic training I ever had.
Hotwash of even the most successful operations always finds flaws to correct ... next time.
That these people were able to maintain even a modicum of their calm/measured discipline -- inside a building, close shooting environment, multiple shotgun/pistol blasts, screaming women moving all over the melee, three men literally knocked down in seconds, blood everywhere with those kind of weapons and head shots ... was ... remarkable.
Truly... remarkable.
.
That these people were able to maintain even a modicum of their calm/measured discipline -- inside a building, close shooting environment, multiple shotgun/pistol blasts, screaming women moving all over the melee, three men literally knocked down in seconds, blood everywhere with those kind of weapons and head shots ... was ... remarkable.
Truly... remarkable.
.
D.B. Cooper
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Here is a lengthy interview with CBS News and the defender, if anyone is interested. pay close attention to 7:35 and 13:00
LiveLife
Member
Very good video.
"In 1995 ... every Sunday, at least one church is robbed in Texas ... I don't know what that number is today.
... You have to be prepared at all times, at all places."
Trunk Monkey
member
A lot of people are talking about what horrible trigger discipline the parishioners had after the fact. One thing the we're forgetting is that this was very likely the first time most of them have ever had to react to a REAL incident.
Even Jeanne Assam, who has been very vocal about the fact that it was only her high speed, low drag police training that enabled her to stop the NLC shooter, emptied her gun and then stood there and watched him shoot himself.
I learned in Psych 101 that one of your brain's primary defense mechanisms when confronted with a traumatic experience is to tell you it's not really happening (Elizabeth Kubler-Ross).
The point I'm trying to make is that most of those parishioners were very likely are still asking themselves if that really happened and dealing with an adrenaline dump like they'd never experienced before.
They'll do better next time (except there probably won't be a next time)
__________________
Even Jeanne Assam, who has been very vocal about the fact that it was only her high speed, low drag police training that enabled her to stop the NLC shooter, emptied her gun and then stood there and watched him shoot himself.
I learned in Psych 101 that one of your brain's primary defense mechanisms when confronted with a traumatic experience is to tell you it's not really happening (Elizabeth Kubler-Ross).
The point I'm trying to make is that most of those parishioners were very likely are still asking themselves if that really happened and dealing with an adrenaline dump like they'd never experienced before.
They'll do better next time (except there probably won't be a next time)
__________________
I wouldn't put too much stock in what authorities are saying about details for the first couple of days. Mr. Wilson is described as "former FBI" "former federal officer" and "former reserve deputy". Information is all over the place and too many people want the microphone and cameras to have more information, but that is often just repeated rumor.
I don't see or hear another shot, but the first victim is killed trying to draw and that sort of thing can quickly turn into all sorts of distorted stories. I'm confident that if another person took a shot they'd be with Jack Wilson in interviews or noted in his FB page already.
What is remarkable in this case is that this was live streamed and captured for us to review. From before the first victim is shot to well after the downing of the murderer we have a good view of much of the room. There should be other video from other angles out there and the longest video we have seen probably is time edited to cut the "boring" minutes before and the less bloody minutes after the shooting (we're seeing vid edited down to just show the murders and not the termination of the threat).
I don't see or hear another shot, but the first victim is killed trying to draw and that sort of thing can quickly turn into all sorts of distorted stories. I'm confident that if another person took a shot they'd be with Jack Wilson in interviews or noted in his FB page already.
What is remarkable in this case is that this was live streamed and captured for us to review. From before the first victim is shot to well after the downing of the murderer we have a good view of much of the room. There should be other video from other angles out there and the longest video we have seen probably is time edited to cut the "boring" minutes before and the less bloody minutes after the shooting (we're seeing vid edited down to just show the murders and not the termination of the threat).
Recent studies on memory have shown how volatile and malleable it is. During traumatic events short term memory doesn't make it whole into long term and the brain works to fill in the gaps with plausible information that helps with the continuity of the "story". That leads to false memories and makes getting an accurate picture from just a single eye witness challenging and it makes it challenging to help witnesses resolve the differences between their remembered experience and what actually happened. Tough without video.
Trunk Monkey
member
I'm sorry but I don't see any connection between what I posted and your response.
The point that I'm trying to make is it it's ridiculous to expect a bunch of volunteer security guards many of whom I would guess have never been involved in a self-defense incident or gun fight before to behave like SEAL Team Six or the local SWAT team after incident was over.
I would be willing to bet that most of them were so busy trying to process whether or not it actually happened they didn't have the brain power to be thinking about their muzzle discipline and their Trigger Discipline.
The very first time I was involved in a shooting incident I was at home with two roommates when one of their girlfriends showed up and started shooting up our kitchen. The only thing that I remember was at the first shot I ran straight out the front door. I know I called the police but I don't know where from and this was before cell phones.
The last shooting incident I was involved in I was getting ready to go to work one night and somebody started shooting at the end of the parking lot. I actually remember being glad I was wearing body armor. I also remember making a conscious decision to get down behind the engine block of my car instead of the trunk. I don't remember drawing my gun but I do remember being very cognizant of where my trigger finger was at and where the muzzle that gun was pointed.
But I had to go through situations like that a time or two to get there.
I have no experience or qualifications whatsoever, but one of the things I wondered about when I watched the video is why the security guard took a low percentage shot at the head of a moving target rather than trying to suppress/immobilize the shooter. Maybe the coat made it difficult to locate the shooter's body, maybe the guard was just that confident and capable, but it's hard for me to imagine that sang-froid.
Trunk Monkey
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