Double rifle

[Bob Thompson]

In researching EAA's web site I noticed what looks like a nice side by side double rifle in a variety of calibers. It has a unique barrel system for centering shots and is priced at $629. Seems reasonable if quality is there. I always wanted something that resembled an early African/British style double and this one can be had in 45-70. Has anybody seen or shot this rifle and what do you think. I don't think I'll ever do Africa but this would be fun to play with.

 

[BigG]

I bought an earlier model in .308. It is O/U vs SXS but works in the way you describe. A very good value and worth a lot more than the price. Imagine you will be pleased with the SXS version.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Have to admit it sounds interesting.

The cheapest regulated double out there is a 45/70 by Pedersoli with exposed hammers, at $2000 or so.

 

[Dave R]

The cool thing about this gun is YOU can regulate the barrels. No excuse for poor groups.

 

[Spinner]

Must admit the idea of a cheap double has a certain appeal

If it follows the Baikal philosophy of "built like a tank" the rifle should be plenty strong enough for fairly hot 45-70 reloads but the only concern I would have is the recoil from a full-house 45-70 in a 7.5 pound rifle.

Spinner

 

[H&Hhunter]

If it follows the Baikal philosophy of "built like a tank" the rifle should be plenty strong enough for fairly hot 45-70 reloads but the only concern I would have is the recoil from a full-house 45-70 in a 7.5 pound rifle.

Spinner,

That is about the same weight as a marlin lever action. I've got a custom CB 1895 marlin that weighs in at just under 6lbs. While you don't have to ask anyone if you just pulled the trigger when using thermo nuclear loads the recoil is survivable. But just barely......

Whats the site for EAA I'd like to see that.

 

[Black92LX]

i have heard nothing but good things on their Saiga rifles. but haven't heard anything about their double rifles.

 

[Spinner]

The URL is

http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/rifles/sidebyside/index.shtml

I like the idea of a double rifle without having to auction off internal organs to finance it. Problem is, I doubt I'd have a justifiable excuse to own one .... though it sure would be fun to turn up at the local range and let rip with a 45-70 double!!!! It'd be even more impressive if it were loaded with black powder BIG bang, lots of smoke ..... what else could a boy want????

Maybe I could convince the wife that its essential for protecting the vege patch from marauding critters!!

Spinner

 

[Preacherman]

It's certainly a nice looking beast..

I'd like to see one. A double .45-70 with hot loads, like the Garrett Hammerheads, would be ballistically very close to the fabled .470 Nitro Express in terminal effect. Interesting!

 

[Kestrel]

I have a hard time believing that an accurate double rifle, with both barrels shooting to the same POA, can be had for $699.

I'd love to be wrong, though!

Steve

 

[H&Hhunter]

I'd like to see one. A double .45-70 with hot loads, like the Garrett Hammerheads, would be ballistically very close to the fabled .470 Nitro Express in terminal effect. Interesting!

The question is will the action take the pressure required to fire the hotter .45-70 loads? And yes if it will that'd be quite interesting, wouldn't it?

However to even think of comparing a .45-70 to the fabled, legendary, the one the only .470Nitro Express......... Pure unadulterated blasphemey

A proper double always has the NE terminolgy after the number part period.

I think however I may have to have one of these little buggers so as can practice double shooting without having to refinance my house for every three rounds out of my .470.

 

[Preacherman]

Well, let's look at them side-by-side. Garrett posts the following about their two "heavy" .45-70 loads (source here):

420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS

THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, MARLIN, NEF, AND SHILOH SHARPS RIFLES.

ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .287; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS


540-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1550-FPS

THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN MARLIN RIFLES.

ENERGY: 2880 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 55; MEPLAT: .360"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .368; TRAJECTORY: +1.5" @ 50-YDS; ZERO @ 100-YDS; -6.5" @ 150-YDS

Federal list their Woodleigh solid as follows (source here):

Federal Load No. P470B
Factory Primer No. 216
Caliber 470 Nitro Express
Bullet Weight 500 grain / 32.4 gram
Bullet style Woodleigh Solid

Muzzle Velocity 2150 fps

Muzzle Energy 5130 fpe

So, yes, the 470 NE does pack 66% more muzzle energy than the 420gr. Hammerhead, at about 16% more muzzle velocity: so the external ballistics favor the 470. However, the target ballistics of the heavy .45-70 load are astonishing, much more than one would think possible. To quote Randy Garrett (see here for more details):

Owing to the natural penetration superiority of proper hard-cast bullets, we felt inclined to focus our attention on two loads. One capable of flat trajectory out to 200-yards for use against all heavy game up to about 1600 pounds, and one fully capable of handling the heaviest buffalo, as well as providing unparalleled effectiveness on grizzlies at close quarters. Our 420-grainer is ideally suited for hunting all but the very heaviest game on the planet. It is MOA accurate, and will shoot lengthwise through the heaviest coastal grizzly at 200-yards. Our 540-grainer provides impact-effect against heavy game that simply is all out of proportion to its apparent ballistics. It will shoot lengthwise through bison and Cape buffalo, and is a super hammer for stopping determined grizzlies. It is the bluntest hard-cast bullet available for the caliber. It is also quite accurate, consistently providing 1.2 MOA.

I think that this terminal performance (substantiated by field performance, BTW) puts the heavy .45-70 loads fully in the .470 NE class.

 

[Bill Hook]

This isn't a rib-less rifle with two separated barrels joined at the muzzle, is it?

 

[H&Hhunter]

I think that this terminal performance (substantiated by field performance, BTW) puts the heavy .45-70 loads fully in the .470 NE class.

No argument here Preacherman. Rich of the TFL is a good friend of mine. If you re-read my post however you'll see that I am not doubting the capability of the .45-70.

I am simply in question as to the capability of the rifle to handle these high pressure loads. If it will then by golly it'd be a pretty capable platform.

And (BTW) Rich had the worst problem on buffalo with the 540gr Hammer head. His PH asked him not to use them after a post mortem and a spot of trouble with that load. That is what Rich told me.

And in anycase it's still hieracy to compare such a petty little contiental round like the .45-70 to the pure royal pedigree of the .470NE. Regardless of the facts........

Just kidding guys I am actually going to buy one of these EAA's in 45-70 and will give a full report when able this is exciting to me!! An affordable double, if it shoots and will hold together it will be the first of it's kind.

 

[Slingster]

The response I got from EAA is that the .45-70 double is only considered safe with standard factory loads, i.e., Trapdoor-level loads. No doubt part of this position is due to liability avoidance, but even though I intend to get one of these rifles I'm not going to test the limits personally.

 

[BigG]

The .308 O/U is the one shown at their website also. Concerning strength, the .308 is a high intensity ctg and puts way higher demands on the weapon than a 45/70 imho. It may not kick as much, but both SxS and O/U are chambered for .308 and .223 which tell me it is as strong or stronger than anything Great Britain ever put out.

If the SxS 45/70 is as solid as the .308 I will fire nuclear level loads.

 

[Shalako]

Who's going to be the first to pull both triggers at the same time....?

 

[Spinner]

I'm surprised that EAA will only recommend the lowest power .45-70 loads. From data from Chuck Hawks web page, the .308 has a SAAMI mean maximum pressure of 52,000 cup. The 30.06 has a maximum of 50,000 cup and the .223 has a maximum pressure of 52,000 cup.

He also discusses the .45-70 and talks about 3 levels of loads. The first level is low pressure for old Sharps rifles and replicas and such and runs at 25,000 cup. The second level is for modern strong repeaters such as Marlins, etc and runs at 40,000 cup and the highest pressure reloads should be reserved for very strong guns such as the Ruger #1 or Dakota 10 single shots at 50,000 cup.

Now, if this Baikal double rifle is chambered in .308, 30.06, .223, .270, etc which all run around the 50,000 cup mark, surely it'll handle the hot .45-70 loads with safety. The only reason I can think of to suggest that it might be a problem is if the larger bore diameter weakened the action somehow, but I can't see how that could happen.

I'm picking it'd be safe for repeated full house "Hammer of Thor" type loads, but I'm sure as heck not sticking my hand up to be the one to shoot them first ...... a 500 grain bullet driven at 1800 fps is going to be extremely impressive at both ends in a 7.5 pound rifle!! Add a couple of pounds to the rifle and I'll think about it.

Still, the .470NE will drive a 500 gn bullet at around 2100 fps won't it? That's some SERIOUS firepower!!

Spinner

 

[BigG]

I personally do not think the 45/70 in any guise is the equal of the large bore nitro express numbers (450 - 470) but what do I know?

I know the 458 Magnum gives a pretty authoritative boot at both ends of the rifle using factory 500 gr fodder. (500 gr @ 2,000 fps) Have loaded my 458 down to 45/70 levels and wondered "is that all there is?"



PS: The Garrett(?) load referenced above is 540 gr @ 1,550 fps. I would probably shoot the Marlin loads in a Baikal with no sweat. YMMV

 

[Bob Thompson]

Having had mucho fun with my Sharps replica in 45-70 both smokless and black powder I'm now dreaming of a simple chamber ream on the EAA to .45 X 3 1/2 with maximum duplex loads. Now where is my dam safari jacket for hunts in Idaho and Montana? Maybe a special draw for bison here in Utah. Dreaming, yea; reality, maybe.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

the SXS rifle comes in 30-06 and 308 too

CAL/BBL
7.62x39 / 23.5"
308WIN / 23.5"
30-06 / 23.5"
270 / 23.5"
223R /23.5"
45-70 / 23.5"

 

[BlkHawk73]

thanks...I had my chioce for what I'm bying myself next narrowed down to 3 or 4 models. Now this... I'd forgotten all about this Sxs until just now. thanx alot While I've heard of them also, I haven't heard anything good or bad about them. Don't really need one but I gotta agree, one sure would be fun.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Still, the .470NE will drive a 500 gn bullet at around 2100 fps won't it? That's some SERIOUS firepower!!

Spinner,
My .470 regulates 500gr bullets at 2150FPS for just at 5100Ftlbs of energy. With that load it shoots inside of 2 inches at 50 yards from both barrels.

I personally do not think the 45/70 in any guise is the equal of the large bore nitro express numbers (450 - 470) but what do I know?

BigG,

I have to agree with you on that one. But the .45-70 is a capable DG round in the right loadings none the less.

As far as shear knock down and stopping force the .45-70 doesn't hold a candle the the big NE rounds. It will penetrate with the best of them however. And that means alot.

There is no getting over a 66% greater energy level in a bigger diameter heavier bullet as far as K/O is concerned. That is where the old big bore Nitro rounds really shine.

 

[BigG]

H&HHunter: You and I must attend the same church.

the .45-70 is a capable DG round in the right loadings none the less.

I agree with that . The big reason the NEs used solids was for PENETRATION which the hardnosed 45/70 has plenty of according to reports. If you had nothing but a 45/70, you would still be damned well armed. Just not the romance of the big NEs, imho anyway! Can't really find a warm spot in my heart for the gun (caliber) that lost the Little Bighorn engagement.

 

[Bill Hook]

It was the gun, not the caliber. Lousy extraction and a slow rate of fire.