Double Tap ammo.. high velocity stuff

[researchdoc]

With recent threads on .357 flame cutting and .357 v. .45, I got to thinking about the .357. The cartridge was originally put in an N-frame and was, unless mistaken (and please forgive me if I am) was called something like .38-44. It made me realize that the .357 mag was meant to do more than it is, in way of velocity. Researching this, original loads included a 158gr bullet going between 1500 and 1600 fps out of a 6" bbl. Of course with the advent of Bil Jordan's K-frame, speeds probably were decreased due to the reduction in robustness of that frame. Of course there are plenty of J frames with the moniker of .357 on the side of the bbl and some of those are even exotic metals of titanium and scandium.. so velocities have tended to go south in the magnum. Looking at Double Tap's website, I see that they offer true magnum velocites in the stylings of the original loads. They even list a J frame with less than a 2" bbl having produced a blistering 1450+ fps in a 125gr bullet. All this meeting the criteria of the case pressure being at or below 35,000 psi, or so I am told. I imagine that is ferocious out of a snubbie, K or J frame. I normally carry a 2.5" 686. The extra weight helps considerably as far as recoil. The short bbl helps in the way of concealment and manuverability.
What are your thoughts on carrying such a load as the Double Tap 125 gr. Gold Dots in an L frame with the shorter bbl?
What about the 158 gr. Gold Dot they offer? Any advantages of that over the 125 gr. at that speed in a SD firearm as said?
What about Double Tap themselves? Good company? Good ammo? Reliable?
Anyone carry this stuff?

 

[.cheese.]

What would be nice is if they offered it with Gold Dot short barrel bullets. Double Tap loadings with that bullet would be IMO the perfect snubby load.

 

[researchdoc]

cheese, Do you mean low recoil or just the bullet weight or both?
Thx

 

[NG VI]

Speer has a Gold Dot bullet made for snub revolvers (and short autos) that has the expansion velocity window lowered, so they work more reliably out of a shorter barrel than the standard Gold Dot. Though a 180 grain gold dot expanded perfectly out of my Glock 27.

 

[mavracer]

if you can afford enough Doubletaps to wear out an L frame you can afford another gun.

 

[batmann]

I have and use Double Tap ammo. It is on the hot side, but very good stuff. If you want a SD round it is hard to do better than a 125 gr hollow point in .357. The 158 gr is a little on the power side for SD IMHO.

 

[researchdoc]

batmann,
What do you carry and shoot them out of?

 

[JCole]

I use Doubletap in .38Spl, .357Mag, and 10mm Auto. It's first rate ammunition with considerable punch. I love it. I use the 158gr .357 in a 4" S&W Model 13, but I've used the 125gr as well, I think either would get the job done. For a little less blast, the +P .38Spl with the Short-Barrel Gold Dot bullet @ 1100 fps from a 2" barrel might be a better option for some. DoubleTap is also priced very favorably compared to other premium ammunition. It's hard to say enough nice things!

 

[CZF]

I've had DT ammo in 9mm, 40, 10mm and soon to arrive .357 Magnum.

Other than Double Tap, I prefer the locally made SPEER products.

I also like my DT T-shirt

 

[SAWBONES]

I've shot quite a bit of DT in various calibers, and it's pretty well-made, hot stuff. I've had no problems with any of it in .357 Magnum, .38 Special or .45ACP. Fairly low flash, and very accurate and precise.

 

[Jim March]

I've shot the DT 357 125gr "high speed" Gold Dot in my NewVaq (4.68" barrel). Stuff is WAY hot...somewhere up near 1,600fps or beyond, which means around 800ft/lbs energy. Blew the crap out of a bowling ball with one, split it in half from 20 paces out, sent pieces of the concrete core well OVER 20 paces (landing well behind me).

The "hollow" in the nose is barely a dimple, yet these are well known as good expanders at 1,400fps or above. This is SERIOUS medicine, one of the nastiest handgun rounds available in any caliber.

From a snubbie in good condition these should hit at LEAST 1,400 therefore the high-speed variant Gold Dot 125 is appropriate. If they ran the large-cavity variants (125 or 135gr) at these speeds they'd come unglued and shed the nose.

The low-speed 135gr Gold Dot in 357 "short barrel specialty load" is meant for speeds of 1,000-1,100fps and would likely top out at around 1,200. It'd be "iffy" as to whether or not they'd hold together at that pace.

 

[REB]

They do offer the low velocity gold dot in the 38SP+P. I agree though at the speed they are pushing the 357mag you are better off with the standard gold dot.

Does anyone know if they load to PSI or CUP pressures? Both standard still exist but the PSI standard is weaker than the CUP standard. My guess is they are loaded to CUP pressure limits where most name brand manufactures have switched to the PSI standard.

 

[Pat Cannon]

I carry the 125gr DT Gold Dots in my 2.25"-bbl Ruger SP101, which is a heavy gun as snubbies go. You definitely know you're shooting a magnum load, but with the cushy Hogue grip I don't find it painful or unmanageable at all. Last time I shot some at an indoor range, I did have the guy in the next lane ask me if I was shooting a .44!

 

[Oro]

The cartridge was originally put in an N-frame and was, unless mistaken (and please forgive me if I am) was called something like .38-44

Yes, originally in an N frame - In 1935 in a model called the ".357 Magnum" - we know call it the "Registered Magnum." The .38/44 was a .38 Special gun on the N (or "44") frame. Thus, .38/44. But that is not a .357 magnum.

Back to Double Tap, Carry it, like it. I only use it in the 180gr. WFNGC for woods carry. Use it in both a 4" 686 (manageable) and a 2.5" 66 (not so much).

 

[Pat Cannon]

The .38/44 was a .38 Special gun on the N (or "44") frame. Thus, .38/44. But that is not a .357 magnum.

Yeah, but it was a .38 Special loaded to pretty much .357 Magnum power levels. Basically a 'proto-Magnum'. The part I didn't know before today was, there was apparently special 'HV' brass for the .38-44.

Here's a quote from a Guns magazine article by Chuck Taylor:

Where did the .357 come from and why? According to Roy jinks' The History Of Smith & Wesson, it was developed from the .38-44 High Velocity to provide higher performance than possible with the .38 Special. Elmer Keith said in his own book, Sixguns, that the .357 evolved by lengthening the .38-44 HV case (which was externally identical to the .38 Special) to prevent it from being chambered in weaker .38 Special guns. He also strongly intimates that the .357's performance level was more or less equal to, not higher than, the .38-44 HV
...
In Sixguns, Keith said that the best accuracy obtained from the new S&W .357 was with .38-44 HV -- not .357 Magnum -- cases, using the Keith 160 gr. #358430 and 13.5 grs. of Hercules #2400 powder.

 

[researchdoc]

Becoming a good discussion on the .357

This is turning out to be a good thread.
Actually, I meant that the .357 basically came from the .38-44, or so was my recollection. I just said it wrong.
It makes sense that the .38-44 would be more accurate than the .357. The head space in the cartridge is less. Are there curio .38-44s out among the population? That would be nice to have a piece of nostalgia like that.

 

[Oro]

What Keith is describing is certainly a very hot .38 special - loaded into beefed up brass and in a very strong gun. Yes, a "proto"magnum. And it's absolutely right that the 357 Magnum was "developed from" a 38/44. But the treating of the cylinders, recessing of the rims for safety, and bore dimensions that will accept a "Magnum" cartridge didn't happen commercially until the Resgistered Magnum came out in 1935. The 38/44 is indeed strong - and there was "hot" ammo marketed just for it. I've heard some old examples from the late 30s and 40s can be found with the cylinders bored longer to let them accommodate 357 magnum cartridges, after that ammo became available in the mid 30s. The Registered Magnums were pricey then and a more affordable version didn't come until the mid 50s with the 19 and 28.

There are 38/44's out there and collectors of them. They were called the "Heavy Duty" and there was a target-sighted model called the "Outdoorsman." Here is a site one of the S&WCA members put together on the Heavy Duty.

http://www.38-44heavyduty.com/Home_Page.php

 

[CZF]

158 grain penetration, with near 125 gr. velocity.
I can't wait to shoot this!

 

[19-3Ben]

I use the load mentioned by CZF.

The 158gr. .357mag in my 3" SP101. It's my EDC, and woods carry load. Lemme tell ya, it's kicks hard, but i KNOW it'll stop whatever it has to.