Double vision sight picture

[redbullitt]

Hello all,

So I just got a laserlyte and a couple targets. They are hoot, get some if you haven't tried them, especially with the crazy shortage stuff going on. I got Mrs Bullitt to get into it a little bit, so we started trying to have her shoot with both eyes open. Next question was pretty much "which set of sights or which target (we had 1 target) do I aim at..." I was not quite sure how to answer that lol.

She has been shooting pistol off and on for about a year and has become pretty good at it. Trouble is that she is left eyed and right handed, so naturally she closes her left eye and does quite well with long guns etc. Not super troubled with the support side eye dominance, but usually people don't encounter an issue here with handguns, especially shooting isosceles stance as far as I know? What more, it seems to be something different than typical dominant eye stuff.

Here is the odd part... when she uses both eyes and focuses on the front sight, she will consistently see 2 targets that are pretty much indistinguishable, so much so that she cant visually tell which is actually there. I see nothing like that going on no matter what I do. If she focuses on the target, she will see 2 pistols/sights.

This happens even if she switches hands, tilts the pistol, changes shooting stance, anything I can think of. In fact, take the gun out and she can replicate it with her thumb and her arm out stretched. I simply kinda see through my thumb by comparison.

Closing her left eye and shooting right side makes the issue go away completely and the same on the other side.

Any ideas would be helpful. Does everyone see 2 targets and just picks one except me lol?

 

[Obturation]

I can't shoot with both eyes open, I know it's the required tactical voodoo but it flat out doesn't work for me. There is no situation I could think of where is be required to have both open, I could probably train to be more comfortable aiming that way but I see no need to care. That goes against the accepted standard knowledge of today but years ago it was one eye to aim and in 20 years they'll be saying you got to close one again

Point is, everyone's an individual. Everyone's got to do what works best for them. I completely ignore the information on the latest and greatest thing and just do what I want.

 

[wiscoaster]

It's normal to see two targets. With practice, you train your brain to ignore one and eventually you only notice the dominant eye's target.

 

[CopperFouling]

John at Warrior Poet Society has an interesting video on eye dominance. He has a tip in there about turning one's head while aiming that I've not heard elsewhere, but it seems pretty helpful for new shooters.

 

[Cump]

I would probably align to the dominant eye because it would probably be easier to train the brain to ignore the non-dominant.

And I would try a both/and procedure -- that is sighting in with the right eye closed, then opening it before the shot, but maintaining aim on the correct (perceived) target. Or maybe start with both open, closing and opening the nondominant to adjust.

Just ideas. I've had to adapt to eye issues (lazy/wandering eyes), but that's another can of worms.

 

[Ralph III]

I can't shoot with both eyes open, I know it's the required tactical voodoo but it flat out doesn't work for me. There is no situation I could think of where is be required to have both open, I could probably train to be more comfortable aiming that way but I see no need to care. That goes against the accepted standard knowledge of today but years ago it was one eye to aim and in 20 years they'll be saying you got to close one again

Point is, everyone's an individual. Everyone's got to do what works best for them. I completely ignore the information on the latest and greatest thing and just do what I want.

Precisely and Ding, Ding, Ding; we have a winner!

It gets pretty ridiculous hearing all of these experts opinions as if there is only one correct way to shoot. Otherwise, advocating their method as the only and best method. Then in 20 years there will be an entirely different set of standards. What happens when someone, in a self defense situation and while under great duress, shoots at the wrong double vision target and hits an innocent Bystander instead? Then they have to explain in court how they were encouraged to shoot with both eye's open. "Well, doesn't that cause double vision?"...."Yes sir it does". "So you decided to shoot anyhow knowing there was a chance that you could pick the wrong target and consequently hit an innocent person?"..."Yes sir, I guess I did".

The point is what works for one person may not work for another, just as Obturation noted. Nor does the technique of a professional shooter, who shoots steel or paper targets, necessarily translate into the best method for self defense purposes.

I'm an avid tennis player and nothing is more glaring then the contrary and conflicting articles Tennis Magazine and various experts have printed within it over many decades. They at times advocate rigid standards and styles which often get repeated by coaches. That is ridiculous because it doesn't consider what works best for an individual. I've given a lot of instruction myself and I simply point out that all of the greatest players of all time (including today) all have different styles and strokes. Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, S. Williams, S. Graf, Navratilova, C. Evert, Connors, McEnroe, S. Edberg (etc, etc, etc). They all had/have different styles and yet they all are considered some of the greatest players of all time.

If you are more accurate shooting with one eye closed then shoot with one eye closed. If you are accurate and most comfortable shooting with both eye's open then shoot with both eye's open. If a Weaver stance works best for you then use it and forget what other folks say. You need to take the advice a lot of experts give with a grain of salt though because when it comes down to it, irrespective of how they present it, it's all just a bunch of opinions.

Happy New Year,
Ralph

 

[doubleh]

I'm another advocate of shooting the way that works best for you. People come in a vastly different array of sizes and shapes and with vastly different accessories like eyes. I am a one eyed shooter. Yes, I tried very hard to use two eyes and it just didn't work as well as using one for me. Pooey on the experts that say it has to be done with both eyes open. If I find something that doesn't get the job done I'm going to look for another way to do the job.

 

[Pat Riot]

+ 1 to Obturation and Ralph III

I am right eye dominant. My left eye is much weaker than my right. I have always had bad eyesight and have worn glasses nearly all my life. My vision is not correctable to 20/20 with glasses that I could function with.
Even when my vision was correctable to 20/20 in both eyes the only way I could shoot with both eyes open is if I were using a peep sight or a 1X red dot. I cannot shoot both eyes open over standard open sights. I will see double.

Eye sight is very precious to me and I know my own eyes. I have had so-called experts tell me what I should and shouldn’t do with my eyes when shooting. They are clueless to everyone’s eyesight but their own. What works for gurus does not always work for others. And if they were as in tune with shooting snd people as many claim then they would know this.

Let your wife do what works for her. Making her do what Joe Schmuckatelli, gun guru of the month, tells you is right may result in her closing up and losing interest in shooting.

 

[doubleh]

Joe Schmuckatelli

Good 'un.

 

[wiscoaster]

Let your wife do what works for her. Making her do what Joe Schmuckatelli, gun guru of the month, tells you is right may result in her closing up and losing interest in shooting.

Ditto that, in spades!!

That being said, it never hurts to learn about what works for other people, so that choice can be made by trying out various techniques.

 

[needmorecowbell]

I am right handed and left eye dominant and have this. I shoot with left eye closed. If do keep both eyes open, it’s the image on the right which links to my left eye that is on target

 

[redbullitt]

Agreed on shooting with left eye closed. That's the plan, but we are both curious about the double vision thing. Do not need to be having to guess which target if you actually need to shoot something haha.

If it's an eye dominance thing, shouldn't the double vision issue go away when shooting left handed in her case?

 

[JohnKSa]

Here is the odd part... when she uses both eyes and focuses on the front sight, she will consistently see 2 targets that are pretty much indistinguishable, so much so that she cant visually tell which is actually there. I see nothing like that going on no matter what I do.

Your brain is doing some filtering work for you. Assuming you have two functional eyes, then when you look at an object close to you with both eyes open, objects farther away will be doubled. If you have very strong eye dominance then your brain is basically taking care of one of those doubles so you only consciously "see" the one that is visible to your dominant eye.

People with weak dominance will likely see the doubled image of the more distant target.

I'm sort of in the middle. When I'm shooting at a single target, I do fine with both eyes open. When I'm shooting at multiple very similar targets that are close together (like plates on a plate rack) and trying to go fast, my brain can't keep track of everything and if I don't close one eye, I can start chasing "images" instead of shooting at the actual plates.

By the way, it works in reverse as well. When a person focuses on a distant object, objects closer to them will appear doubled. The "Floating HotDog" illusion makes use of this fact.

 

[redbullitt]

Thanks for the info everyone. She asked some of her family, and about half of them see similarly to me and the other half like her. Small sample of 6 people, but interesting.

Never really thought of the double image thing since I simply don't see it , and never had anyone comment on it so notably as her lol. I'd think that when I switch to support side to shoot I'd have a similar thing happen, but I do not. Vice versa, when she switches to support side, she still has the double target or sights with both eyes open.

 

[Ralph III]

Out of focus double vision is a natural phenomenon because your eye's see from different perspectives. If you draw a straight line from your right eye to a object and then draw a straight line from your left eye to the same object; you create two intercepting lines which form an "x". So anything in front of or behind your point of focus will naturally be double vision and out of focus. The pics below may better explain it. Otherwise, put your finger in front of your face with a door casing in the background. Now focus on your finger, the background door casing should be doubled. Now focus on the door casing. Your finger will now be doubled.

People who do not suffer as much with this out of focus double vision most likely have a dominant eye. So I suppose it's exactly like JohnKS stated in that their brain is doing some filtering work. Here is an abbreviated quote from Healthline.com

A dominant eye isn’t always about one having better vision, but....because of preference. Your dominant eye is the one that provides slightly more input to the visual cortex of your brain and relays information more accurately, such as the location of objects.

So it's really amazing that some folks can naturally shoot with both eye's open. The rest of us who do not have a dominant eye or eye preference may find shooting with both eye's open nearly impossible. I just cannot shoot that way.

Ralph

 

[Ru4real]

Interesting.

I shoot with both eyes open (archery, rifle, handguns) and with handguns I have one target with two sight pictures because I focus on the target.

Strong hand, for me, the second sight picture is faint and almost “invisible”. Repetition I suppose.

Weak hand, both sight pictures are equally strong, but here is the kicker when I focus on the target. It doesn’t matter which “sight picture” I use, as long as the sights are lined up, I will make a hit.

In IDPA, most weak hand runs I make have some hits with “left eye” sight picture and some with “right eye” sight picture. I use which ever sight picture I acquire first.

 

[Pat Riot]

I agree @Ralph III
I tried looking at whether or not length of sight radius might make a difference (from my eyesight perspective) in regards to seeing double or not seeing double. It really didn’t seem to matter in regards to handguns. I saw double and had a hard time keeping front sight focus on my snubbie revolvers and my longest sight radius handguns, Glock 34 and Ruger orig. Vaquero with a 7.5” barrel.

For me my left eye is weaker even with correction. My right eye is dominant and I shoot right handed yet I cannot shoot with both eyes open and maintain a sight picture or target picture unless I concentrate really hard it only works for a very short time, 3 seconds, maybe.

Also, if I had a lethal threat and I tried really hard to keep both eyes open I would waste precious time trying to get properly on target, but I still wouldn’t be confident in that the POI is my POA. “Know your target and what is beyond” goes right out the window with me trying to shoot with both eyes open.
I can easily see the threat, align sights with one eye, fire, open left eye and assess situation all very quickly. That is what I have trained myself to do.

 

[Ralph III]

Yes, I agree Pat. It doesn't matter how I aim or at what distance or whichever gun. My double vision "pictures" are equally strong so my mind naturally tries to center the target between the two sight pictures. Consequently, my POI would be left of center.

Like Ru4real I have two sight pictures and one target. However, both of my sight pictures are equally strong. In fact, when I try to aim with the correct sight picture it actually disappears while on the target. It feels like being cross eyed. So for me it's the complete opposite of Ru4real. I can clearly see the sights as a double image when not on the target but if I put one of the sight pictures on the target it then disappears.

It would be real interesting if the brain could be trained to overcome this but for me I doubt. I've tried and it doesn't matter. The only way I can shoot with both eyes open is to at least squint the non dominant eye. So it's just amazing this isn't the case with some people.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[Thunderchicken]

I agree people should do what works for them.

To address the original question “which target is which?” the right-hand target is the one seen by the right eye and the left-hand one seen by the left eye (if you’re focusing on the front sight). You can experiment by holding up a finger (the “sight”) and looking at an object while closing one or the other eye. You will see the distant object appear to the left in the left eye vs. the finger. As others have noted, it is just parallax, which is how we get much of our ability to perceive depth.

It is always interesting to experiment with technique. I have a photographer friend who insists you should use an SLR by looking through the viewfinder with one eye while keeping the other open. I have tried many times and it just confuses me. But I shoot with both eyes open and that seems natural ... for me. Again, do what works but occasional experimentation is how you occasionally find something that works better ... for you.

 

[Ralph III]

I agree people should do what works for them.

To address the original question “which target is which?” the right-hand target is the one seen by the right eye and the left-hand one seen by the left eye (if you’re focusing on the front sight).

Yes, but if your focus is on the target when you shoot then it's just the opposite. The proper sight...picture is actually on the left side for the right eye and the right side for the left eye. When I shoot, my focus is on the target.

God Bless,
Ralph

 

[Drail]

deleted

 

[Varminterror]

Trouble is that she is left eyed and right handed, so naturally...

...she should be learning to shoot left handed with her left eye.

 

[doubleh]

Closing one eye places strain on the other one and is completely unnatural. When you dial your cell phone do you close one eye? When you look at a traffic light do you close one eye? When you look at a beautiful woman do you close one eye? When you are focused on the front sight and the target you should see two sight pictures because that's how human eyes work at very short focal distances and your brain will merge them together. You should see one sight picture that is aligned with the eye looking down the bore line and one sight picture that is looking down the side of the bore line because humans have sterescopic vision so that you may have depth perception. One eye will have the front sight and rear notch aligned and the other eye will not but both eyes will see the front sight. You have no need for depth perception when looking down the sights.The problem is we have all been staring at 2 dimensional TV and cell phone screens for so long that we don't use depth perception half the time. We let our brain conjure up a contrived 3 dimensional image even though we really only have 2 dimensions to work with. Use both eyes. Focus both on the front sight. One eye will have the front sight in the notch and the other eye will have it off to the side of the notch. What "should" actually happen is your brain will merge the two images together and the front sight will appear translucent (you can see through it) and you can see the target transposed directly on the center of the front sight through as if it were transparent. I did this in matches for many years. It allows you to still have peripheral vision and a crisp sight focus. You can see things like brass flying off to the side and pick up the next target much faster. All really accomplished shooters learn how to focus this way at some point. If you don't the guys who have learned it will sail right past you. Use both eyes and teach your brain to relax. Hold one finger up and look at your computer screen. You should see two fingers. You can see through one of them and one will appear to be solid. When your brain merges them they will both appear transparent. The trick is to not "try" to do it - just relax and let it happen. You can do it. I am an NRA Instructor and whenever I would try to teach this to students most of them would fight it and see two separate images. Don't fight it. Your brain can do amazing stuff if you just let it happen.

I just tried your little computer experiment. Apparently I'm like an old dog and too old to learn new tricks. All I managed to see was one finger and it didn't become transparent. I've been looking at front sights using one or both eyes for a lot of years and never had the front sight become translucent. I guess my brain isn't capable of this amazing stuff you describe and I'm stuck with seeing solid objects.

 

[d2wing]

...she should be learning to shoot left handed with her left eye.

This is what a trained instructor would say. Being one I agree. But there are exceptions. If you learn the wrong way it can be hard to retrain the correct way. I recently had a head injury that has affected my vision and now I have that same problem of seeing double. Good glasses help as do eye exercises and getting rest. Special shooting glasses can help too. She may just have to squint a little. It's pretty hard to train on the internet.

 

[Ralph III]

Quote by Drail......"Closing one eye places strain on the other one and is completely unnatural...."

Quote by Drail......"You can do it. I am an NRA Instructor and whenever I would try to teach this to students most of them would fight it and see two separate images.....".

Drail, I realize you deleted your post but here is where you went wrong.

First, please recognize that two of your most vital quotes above are in fact fully contradictory. If it were indeed completely natural to shoot with both eyes open then there would be no reason to "fight it". You however admitted that "most" of your students indeed do just that which should tell you that it is indeed not natural in this instance. Otherwise, it is not natural for many and such may also be dependent on the type of shooting being done.

Using both eye's is natural but in some instances using one eye is just as natural and preferred. This is especially true in regards to precision. I've done construction most of my life and when using a miter saw, if I want to insure I am cutting my line precisely, I will close one eye in order to align the blade. Otherwise, if I am rough cutting something then both eye's open. It's much like shooting.

*If I am instinctive firing from 10 ft or 20 ft then I can shoot with both eye's open because I can be precise enough from that distance to hit my target. Sight alignment is not crucial.

*However, if I am attempting to be highly precise then I will shoot with one eye closed because sight alignment is crucial. This allows me to be highly precise because my sight picture is more vivid which allows for greater accuracy. You spoke of professionals. But you failed to mention the greatest shooters in the world (Olympians) who use blinders to cover the non dominant eye in precision shooting events? They then use other lenses to help enhance the vision of the dominant eye in insuring precise sight alignment. Monocular vision and the gear they use allow them to be as precise as they can possibly be.


Doctors of optometry help Olympic shooters hit the target
"More than 20/20 visual acuity is necessary to have 'good vision,'" Dr. Citek adds. "Eye preference—in sports that require monocular fixation, such as certain shooting sports, or binocularity, in most other sports....."

Why Olympic Sharpshooters Insist On Looking Like Cyborgs
https://www.wired.com/2016/08/olympic-sharpshooters-look-like-cyborgs/


You are failing to recognize that everyone is different and what works best for some may not work best for others. You are also failing to recognize that shooting with both eye's open may be best in some instances whereas shooting with one eye closed may be better in other instances. It's fine to try different methods but nobody will ever convince me that shooting with both eye's open is better for precision then shooting with one eye. I don't think you could convince elite Olympic precision shooter either.

God Bless,
Ralph