FBI Test Protocal?

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Erik

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What is it, you ask?

Well, in case you don't know:

Per the FBI's Annual Report of results of handgun ammunition testing.

The FBI, after extensive research and consultation, established that a handgun bullet must consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue in order to reliably penetrate vital organs within the human target regardless of the angle of impact or intervening obstacles such as arms, clothing, glass, etc. Penetration of 18 inches is even better. Given minimum penetration, the only means of increasing wound effectiveness is to enlarge the permanent cavity. This increases the amount of vital tissues with a marginally placed shot, and increases the potential for quicker blood loss. This is important because, with the single exception of damaging the central nervous system, the only way to force incapacitation upon an unwilling adversary is to cause enough blood loss to starve the brain of its oxygen and/or drop blood pressure to zero. This takes time, and the faster haemorrhage can occur the better.

The FBI ammunition test protocol is a series of practically oriented tests to measure a bullet's ability to meet these performance standards. The result is an assessment of a bullet's ability to inflict effective wounds after defeating various intervening obstacles commonly present in law enforcement shootings. The overall results of a test are thus indicative of that specific cartridge's suitability for the wide range of conditions in which law enforcement officers engage in shootings.

The test media used by the FBI to simulate living tissue is 10% ballistic gelatin (Kind & Knox 250-A), mixed by weight. The gelatin is stored at 4x Centigrade (39.2x Fahrenheit) and shot within 20 minutes of being removed from the refrigerator. The temperature of the gelatin is critical, because penetration changes significantly with temperature. This specific gelatin mix was determined and calibrated by the U.S. Army Wound Ballistics Research Laboratory, Presidio of San Francisco, to produce the same penetration results as that obtained in actual living tissue. Each gelatin block is calibrated before use to ensure its composition is within defined parameters. The gelatin blocks for handgun rounds are approximately six inches square and 16 inches long. As necessary, additional blocks are lined up in contact with each other to ensure containment of the bullet's penetration. Each shot's penetration is measured to the nearest 0.25 inch. The projectile is recovered, weighed and measured for expansion by averaging its greatest diameter with its smallest diameter.

The ammunition test protocol using this gelatin is composed of eight test events. In each test event, five shots are fired. A new gelatin block and new test materials are used for each individual shot. The complete test consists of firing 40 shots. Each test event is discussed below in order.

All firing in these eight test events is done with a typical service weapon representative of those used by law enforcement. The weapon used is fully described in each test report.

Test Event l--Bare Gelatin

The gelatin block is bare and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest bullet expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare
gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.

Test Event 2--Heavy Clothing

The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: One layer of cotton T-Shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a I0 ounce down comforter in cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.

Test Event 3—Steel

Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanised finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with light clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of I0 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light clothing is one layer of cotton T-Shirt material and one layer of cotton shirt material, and is used in all subsequent test events. The steel is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more than two pieces of 20 gauge steel.

Test Event 4—Wallboard

Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with light clothing and set 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.

Test Event 5—Plywood

One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with light clothing and set 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.

Test Event 6--Automobile Glass

One piece of A. S. I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring l5 x l8 inches is set at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15 degrees to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with light clothing and set 18 inches behind the glass. The
shot is made at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the centre of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.

Test Event 7--Heavy Clothing at 20 yards

This event repeats test event 2 but at the range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.

Test Event 8--Automobile Glass at 20 yards

This event repeats test event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15 degree offset. This shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.

In addition to the above described series of test events, each cartridge is tested for velocity and accuracy. Twenty rounds are fired through a test barrel and twenty rounds are fired through the service weapon used in the penetration tests.

Two ten-shot groups are fired from the test barrel, and two ten-shot groups from the service weapon used, at 25 yards. They are measured from centre to centre of the two most widely spaced holes, averaged and reported.
 
Posted because it is occassionally referenced, in part or whole, even if they don't know it (for example any time ammunition makers reference peneration and expansion in gel), and there's just got a to be "a few" lurkers and forum members who aren't familiar with it.

It is the current bench mark test in use.

Anyone curious about their chosen load, or in the process of deciding on one, should track down the results of how it, or a comparable load, fared.
 
Some of the ammo that fail the FBI test actually have excellent real world results against flesh and blood.

Winchester Ranger RA9115HP+ and Federals copy the 9BPLE are two such loads. Considered antique by many but they are battle proven.

Just keep that in mind just because it did not pass the mustard in a lab it does not mean it is not good ammo.
 
There are certain obvious flaws in the logic here.

The FBI testing concluded the 10mm was the best based on its testing. Field use changed its opinion.

This is also the agency that determined, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that .38 Special was the best round for about 50 years.

The .45 came in second in the testing, but wasn't chosen after the FBI decided the 10 wasn't the best choice.

This from the same government that decided that 9mm was superior to .45 for its military.

However, if the logic we should shoot what the FBI shoots because the FBI knows best. Then we should drive what the FBI drives and wear the shoes the FBI wears.

I'm not an FBI agent and I'm not forced to shoot the gun the agency approves or the ammo it dispenses.

IMHO, the FBI testing is woefully weak. Compare it to the testing the Army does when it tests a new gun. And it picked a 9mm FMJ as its round of choice.

And what do most US special ops units use? Mostly .45 ACP.

According to FBI statistics between 1993 and 2002 there were 443 law enforcement officers killed by gunfire in the line of duty. Of those 232 were killed while wearing body armor. 45 were killed with their own weapon.

The most were killed with 9X19, 136. The second-highest number, 65, were killed with .38 Specials. No. 3 was the .380 with 43 kills. The 45 ranked fourth with 36 kills, however it was first against body armor with two-thirds of the victims wearing body armor.

For statistics for those years see - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_10_73/ai_n7577583/pg_6

Numbers are numbers. They are basically meaningless.

The FBI is just another government agency. It is about as efficient as the Post Office or Social Security.

I don't care what the FBI does. I'd rather trust the folks at Speer, Sierra, Winchester, Remington or Federal who test thousands of rounds against dozens of mediums. Then they go back to the drawing board and try to improve performance followed by testing of thousands more rounds.

The FBI has a long history of picking the wrong bullet for the wrong caliber in the wrong gun. In its original testing to replace the 38 it chose to compare a 147-grain 9mm against a 185-grain 45. Lets see, that's comparing the slowest of all 9s against the lightest of all 45s. Now that makes a lot of sense.

"The selection of these particular cartridges for testing was based, in large part, on the consensus of the Wound Ballistic Workshop participants that these bullets should provide superior penetration over other hollow point bullets in their respective calibers."

What idiot thought a 185 HP would penetrate better out of a .45 than a 230-grain? One that worked for the FBI.

Then it ended up picking the 10.

See - http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/guns_and_weapons/10mmpist.html

I suppose I ought to look into a Crown Victoria if I want the best car - or at least the best one at exploding in a rear-end collision.

Now, where do I go to get those wing-tip track shoes they wear?
 
The intent of the tread wasn't to debate tit for tat what the FBI likes or not, but to educate the community on the benchmark test used by ammunition manufacturors and other entities to determine what makes an effective SD cartridge; a hot topic given the most cursory of glance at the site's thread content.

But if tit for tat it must be...

The FBI decided that a 10mm 180 JHP at approx 980 fps was "the best" available at the time of the initial study. They currently issue a .40 180 JHP at approx 1070 fps*, deeming it currently "best." Practically speaking, there is a 90 fps difference between the loads.

*The FBI also issues a 9mm 147 grain JHP and a .45acp 230 grain JHP to a minority of agents. Apparently, agents may opt to carry the 9mm if they are having trouble with the .40S&W load, and FBI SWAT and HRT team members may opt to carry Springfield 1911s in .45acp.

All that and a cup of coffee means that you have... not much more than a cup of coffee.
 
It's a benchmark based on inadequate concentration on tactics and preparedness.

The Miami Gunfight which inspired these tests had one agent have a 97% miss rate with two magazines from his Smith and Wesson Model 59, and the two perpetrators were struck by 00 buckshot without stopping. The agents engaged the robbers without proper long arms, and primary sidearms of several agents were lost in the car crash when the agents set their handguns on the seat next to them.

Saying that penetration less than 12" of some flavorless dessert mix is insufficient to win a fight when all the other factors involved turned it into a comedy of tragic proportions is like saying the Spartans at Thermopylae needed longer spears and swords instead of someone blocking that goat trail "back door."
 
Fbi Tests

One of things to come out of the FBI tests is that the .357 magnum 125 grain does not penetrate deeply enough. It frequently penetrates less than 10inches. Yet, many state police, highway patrol and sheriff office's swear by this load and I know of NO COMPLAINTS THAT IT IS NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH.

The tests are useful for comparing one round to another, but WERE COMPLETELY USELESS FOR DECIDING ON WHAT IS AN EFFECTIVE ROUND.

If you compare two hollowpoints of similar velocity and weight, you can obtain some useful data about whether a round might penetrate and then expand after hitting an intermediate object like clothes, doors, etc.

The problem with the FBI data was that they never answered the question of what is an effective round. They choose the 10m.m. 180 grain MEDIUM load as it seemed to be as effective as the .45ACP 185 grain LITE load. It offered a smaller diameter for greater magazine capacity and like the 185 grain load, it had less recoil than the 230 grain .45ACP full power load.
It should be just as effective as the .45ACP LITE load, but INS and the BORDER PATROL found that the .40 S&W with a 155 grain at almost 1,200 fps was more effective.

Aside from shooting a lot of live people (the Thompson-Legarde test used corpes), the only way to measure an the effectiveness of a particular round would be by statistical analysis.

MARSHALL has the most stats so far and they usually agree with the field tests by other law enforcement agencies.

Writers like Mas AYOOB also have issued ammo recommendations and they are often very similar to MARSHALL.

Jim
 
Wait a minute...

"They choose the 10m.m. 180 grain MEDIUM load as it seemed to be as effective as the .45ACP 180grain LITE load."

This is incorrect. The FBI Firearms Unit ranked their chosen 10mm load first, ranking their chosen .45acp 230 grain JHP second. Another .45acp, a 185 grain JHP ranked third*. They went so far as to note there was little difference between the two, and stated that they would be content of the .45acp 230 grain JHP was chosen. The FBI Director then decided on the 10mm, delivering on his promise to provide the winner to the field.

* A point of confusion that comes up in the research is that the FBI makes mention of the .45acp 230 grain and the 185 grain JHPs as performing as best in class. I surmise it has to due with information getting out prior to the conclusion of the evaluation cycle.

"...but INS and the BORDER PATROL..."

And practically the whole of the DHS...

Concluded following their test protocals that the .40S&W 155 grain JHP at approx 1250 fps was "the best." Two notable exceptions preferring the .357 Sig 125 grain JHP at approx 1350 fps. Time will tell if the two will be swayed to change.

And...

The stat analysis crowd making decisions for agencies arguably gets smaller and smaller each procurement cycle. For the usual arguments.
 
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Anyway, at the end of the day, the various test protocals, of which the FBI's is arguably the king of the hill, exist merely to provide repeatable, quantifiable data for the purpose of testing and evaluating cartridges for use in the field, whether used by a SWAT member, a Special Agent, a Police Officer, or Joe Forumite of any one of several firearms related forums.

Of course, there are always tests involving milk jugs, sand bags, phone books, pinr boards, cinder blocks, car doors, and cadavers of various size and shapes to rely on as well.
 
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The problem with the FBI data was that they never answered the question of what is an effective round.
The FBI tests very clearly define what an effective round is and can do. Read Handgun Wounding and Effectiveness for more.

MARSHALL has the most stats so far and they usually agree with the field tests by other law enforcement agencies.
Marshall doesn't show his work and I've never seen anything that shows le agencies have confirmed his work. I'd like to see either.

Writers like Mas AYOOB also have issued ammo recommendations and they are often very similar to MARSHALL.
How is Ayoob, an auxiliary cop on a 4 man dept. in a town of 2000 people, more or equally qualified to give terminal ballistics assessments as the FBI? No matter his achievements he doesn't have anywhere near the resources they do. It seems a bit like expecting my home testing of new medication to be just as valuable as the FDA's.

Since 9BPLE was brought up I thought I'd paste in some "expert" commentary on its performance and what the practical meaning of failing one of these tests can be
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001008#000007
Dr. Roberts said:
The data above is on the 9BP, the BPLE is going a bit faster. Both the 9BP and BPLE are old designs without the consistent terminal performance or robust expansion exhibited by modern loads; both are relatively poor performers against glass. If I needed a 9mm 115 gr, I'd choose use the Barnes XPB; for a +P+ load, the Winchester Ranger Talon 127 gr (RA9TA) is very good. YMMV--if you like the BPLE or are issued it that's fine, load it up in your mags, then practice...given the choice, I'd rather carry 9BPLE and fire 10,000 rounds a year in solid training, then use the Ranger Talon and only get to shoot 1000 rounds per year...

So its the same thing as usual, its mostly up to you. It may not be an ideal load but consistent performance and all the expansion in the world don't mean anything if you miss.
 
The most were killed with 9X19, 136. The second-highest number, 65, were killed with .38 Specials. No. 3 was the .380 with 43 kills. The 45 ranked fourth with 36 kills, however it was first against body armor with two-thirds of the victims wearing body armor.

This is an interesting statement:uhoh: I am wondering where this thought is coming from about 45's being good against body armor:confused: It does not penetrate as well as the 9mm, must be blunt force trauma:rolleyes:

:)
 
Soybomb - Ayoob has interviewed and studied shootings around the whole damb near planet. And, he openly mocked the FBI's assertion that the .380 causes negative wounding - remember this line?

"Honey, I'm not feeling so hot today. Hit me with a few .380's to perk me up."
 
"The most were killed with 9X19, 136. The second-highest number, 65, were killed with .38 Specials. No. 3 was the .380 with 43 kills. The 45 ranked fourth with 36 kills, however it was first against body armor with two-thirds of the victims wearing body armor."

"This is an interesting statement I am wondering where this thought is coming from about 45's being good against body armor It does not penetrate as well as the 9mm, must be blunt force trauma."

Stop...

The stats show that people shot by certain calibers died. That is all.

Be careful of reading into it.

The fact that the .45acp was used a given number of times successfully against body armor wearers does not mean that it defeated the body armor in the process.
 
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Eric mentions...
The fact that the .45acp was used a given number of times successfully against body armor wearers does not mean that it defeated the body armor in the process

We all know 45 shooters are deadly and would go for the head:D
 
Ayoob has interviewed and studied shootings around the whole damb near planet.
And the FBI just looks at shootings in mayberry? My impression is that alot of LE agencies send shooting data to the FBI. I can't imagine that ayoob is hed that data at the same level even if some do share. I also can't imagine he has the skills or resources to analyze all the data in the way they do. Again I'm open to correction.

And, he openly mocked the FBI's assertion that the .380 causes negative wounding - remember this line?
I'm not familiar with this but it seems a large number of years ago the FBI attempted to come up with a formula to estimate wounding that has since been dropped. I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. Research marches on, being wrong and making mistakes are part of research. You can either find mistakes and move in the right direction or just ignore mistakes or other problems with your work and pretend they don't impact it. To illustrate this here is some number crunching done on M&S work. http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

Now do we want to go with the people that learn from their mistakes or those that just keep marching foward?
 
Gentlemen,
The best way to settle this argumnt is to take it to the woods this year. Mot states allow handgun hunting. Some have caliber restrictions, some have barrel length restrictions, and some are limited only to" centerfire handguns". If your handgun, caliber, cartridge will not humanely harvest a 15o lbs whitetail deer, Why would you trust ypur life to it?
The handgun must be big enough to hit with, accurate, and fairly powerful. If I had a really acurate long slide 9mm, I would fel good about huntimg with it. I have hunted with a Smith and Wessom model 14,15, 19, 617, and 629. All have taken either large varmints or deer. Ask any old poacher if a good .22 target pistol won't put venison in the freezer. I have never hunted with my GLOCK 23, but it isn't the .40 short and wimpy that worries me, it is the fixed sight GLOCK handgun. The sights are not only fixed, but so big as to be imprecise. If you will take your handgun out and use it, you will see that cartridges don't matter nearly so much as a good, accurate handgun, and lots of practice. In the game field, penetration is more important than temporrary or permenant crush cavity. On smaller game, and with a .22 long rifle, hollow points are best if they expand,then come semiwadcutters, which always produce a knockdown on a rabbit. Round nose seldom knocked them down. It's exactly the same with deer. Bullet placement first, then pick a bullet that will penetrate completely, or almost completely.
I know many will say not to use ammo that will penetrate a human torso completely for self defense. I always just smile and ask them how many times that has happened. It has never happened to the F.B.I. I would be a lot more worried about the bullets that mis because of lack of practice
 
LAPD SWAT gave up using 230-grain hardball when they crippled a hostage when they shot the criminal who held her.

Arizona State police had similar problems with their .45 ACP.

Doctor Fackler has the image of a wound channel of 230-grain ball superimposed, to scale, on a photograph of three men standing in line, and the wound channel cuts through all three men.

Sorry, Docmagnum, but when the king of penetration testing (Fackler) has THAT kind of imagery reminding him of the potential horrors of penetration, your argument comes off as weak, false, and just waiting to cripple and injure a bystander.
 
Soybomb - considering that Ayoob regularly conferences with the FBI at ASLET, the data he has generally is the FBI's, PLUS EVERY ONE OF THE REST OF THE AGENCIES HE CONFERS WITH ACROSS THE NATION AND THE GLOBE.

Not shouting - emphasizing.

'Sides, if the FBI was so great, why didn't they stop a bunch of 3rd world retards with boxcutters when they knew about the situation OR got their agents crippled and murdered by two redneck bank robbers?
 
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