Dragon Skin Body Armor: Too good for civilians?

[KBintheSLC]

I recently wrote a letter to Pinnacle Armor management regarding their "LE and Military Only" policy... they have not replied. I have concluded that they are an gun-control organization in disguise. Maybe I am way off, but I can't help but to look at them with severe scrutiny...

To Pinnacle Armor Management,

I was wondering why you guys don't sell Dragon Skin to civilians. Is it that your product is legally restricted for civilian ownership, or is it a personal choice that your company made? If it is a personal choice, it is disappointing at best. Do regular folks not have the right to protect themselves and their families? Is that just a right reserved for the elite?... the dot gov? If it is a personal choice, it would appear (to the common man) that your company is an enemy of the people, a defender of the elite, and an oppressor of the regular working-class American.

With tens of millions of privately owned auto-loading rifles in circulation, and millions of more select-fire rifles and explosives in the hands of government agents (who are also only human), I don't find it outlandish to want to own such a product. So, why would you not sell this to us commoners?

I have come to several possible conclusions... Perhaps you received government funding to develop this product, and your contract with them is restricting you from selling it to us? Perhaps Pinnacle Armor is a private subsidiary of a government agency seeking to expand its dominance over the populous? Lets take it a step further... perhaps this is another case of "Americans can't be trusted with that"... not unlike the anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric used by gun control groups world wide.

Can we consider Pinnacle Armor to be a gun control group? Essentially, your product severely limits the effectiveness of small arms fire (which happens to be the only non-contact weapon us commoners have legal access to). Then you restrict the use of your product to government agencies only, in-turn making an already weak and pathetic populous even more vulnerable to potential tyranny. This is exactly what gun control advocates are doing; limit the effectiveness of civilian arms, and maximize the effectiveness of government control.

So, if your product is not legally restricted for civilians, and it was but a personal choice to avoid this market, why not be honest with yourselves and the world? Come out of the closet and say "we are a gun control group and we are proud of it". Weather this was your intention or not, that is exactly what you guys are doing.

Anyway, if there is some sort of legal restriction for civilian ownership of your product that is beyond your control, please forgive me for my discontent. However, I cannot avoid viewing your "LE and Military sales only" policy as un-American, anti-liberty, and a direct threat to the people of this nation.

Any ideas on why they won't sell this stuff to us commoners?
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

 

[JohnBT]

Have they passed the tests yet?

"On June 6, 2006 in comments posted on an online discussion forum, Karl Masters, director of engineering for Program Manager - Soldier Equipment, said he recently supervised the retest and commented on it. "I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV-3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation]," Masters wrote. "My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin - don't. I do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120 F. I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents..."["

 

[JImbothefiveth]

There was some issue with them not passing the DOJ tests, that could be the cause. I seriously doubt they are a gun control group.

do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120 F. I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents..."["

If that's true, this would be a product to avoid.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I seriously doubt they are a gun control group.

I understand... my concerns stemmed from the fact that I can't get a response from them.

 

[leadcounsel]

While Dragonskin is a good principal, it failed a number of tests that the current armor passed. Even if you could get it, I'd be hesitant to buy it at the current sticker price (which is supposedly in the $3,000 range).

 

[Westermeyer]

dragonskin is great if you are able to schedule when you're going to be shot - the stuff that holds the little disks together inside starts coming apart under heat, moisture, just general wear&tear, etc.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I understand... my concerns stemmed from the fact that I can't get a response from them.

Given their questionable test results in the press it is probably more a case of lawsuit fear than any anti gun slant.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

While I am totally with you in your questioning the LE / Mil only stipulation on purchases of "dragonskin" body armor, I find your letter a bit condescending or off putting.

I use the thesaurus often when writing letters to the "Elitists". Also allow someone who is neutral to the issue proof read my work.

I think I am too nice. Maybe less aggressive than what is warranted.

As they say, " Better to ask questions than to make assumptions."

Maybe they will show some professionalism and answer your questions.

Good job KB !

!QUESTION AUTHORITY!

 

[Zundfolge]

Any ideas on why they won't sell this stuff to us commoners?

There could be several reasons.

• They can barely keep up with their Law Enforcement and/or Military contracts.
• They don't want to lose favor with Law Enforcement agencies that see allowing serfs to wear body armor as being as bad as arming children with machine guns.
• They may be misinformed and believe its illegal to sell to non-LEO/non-military (because several states have laws that make it extra illegal to wear body armor while committing another violent crime.
• They're elitist punks (possible, but frankly unlikely).

Honestly, I suspect #2 is the primary reason.

 

[Lightninstrike]

I think the post has some good points but before condemning I would get the facts.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I think I am too nice. Maybe less aggressive than what is warranted.

I agree... I could have been less harsh. I just have a hard time being nice to companies that make "LE and Military Only" policies on their own will.

I know that most street cops and infantry soldiers hardly qualify as being the "elite" (most are regular working-class folks like you and I). However, they are often used as tools to promote the oppressive agenda of the elite.

I know my letter was a bit scolding... but then again, that is exactly what I was going for.

 

[Zundfolge]

Apparently Michael Yon didn't like it
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/news-flash-dragon-skin.htm

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

The very nature of body armor is anti-gun. Perhaps not in policy but in performance.
When I first saw an ad for "Dragonskin", I thought the ceramic disks were a good idea but didn't think they would perform very well. Might allow for greater mobility but heavy and cumbersome.

There are ways around the LE / Mil only restriction, but no law abiding citizen should have to resort to such tactics.

It is a relatively new product so it is quite possible that your inquiries and others like it might not go unnoticed. They could change their policy with enough people like you and I writing letters showing our displeasure.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

While Dragonskin is a good principal, it failed a number of tests that the current armor passed.

WUT?

You know the government ran that test? and I'm sure everyone here is familiar with Murphy's law? Lowest bidder always wins. Why else did the government not relese the test results?

Besides most of the "saves" with it were done in Iraq. I say let the actual soldiers in the sandbox make reports not rehash a .gov press release.

 

[Tirod]

I understand... my concerns stemmed from the fact that I can't get a response from them.

I see this a lot on forums. I have to ask why they need to respond?

If you are a legitimate buyer asking about your 1,000 piece order, I bet they would get back within a few hours. Otherwise, e-mail, the I-net, and a large number of forums seem to bring grief to manufacturers who are constantly berated for not answering casual, or even pointed questions instantly to the satisfaction of everyone.

I've heard of some small vendors so overwhelmed with processing e-mail inquiries they can't ship product. It eventually boils down to just ignoring most of it, or nothing gets done.

Most CUSTOMERS spending money get responses. Idle tire kickers will quickly be screened and allowed to walk off the lot with whatever conclusion they want.

I'm sorry, we aren't as important as DOD, and we won't really bring many sales to the table. We're just background noise. DOD and Congress has all their attention.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

When it first came out, a lot of wealthy people were buying it and sending it to loved ones in Iraq due to the substandard armor soldiers were issued. Eventually the DOD "banned" this practice, and the use of it by military personnel. Shortly after this, I noticed the LE/Mil only practice. I have not seen the official "tests", but have seen this stuff on tv, I like it. It took everything they threw at it, even placing it on top of a grenade after blasting it with .223, 7.62, .50, and many many rounds of other various cal.

 

[the_right_reverend]

think about

Now you can wear armor that flexes and molds to the contours of your body

Flexes is one of the faults of dragon skin. if a bullet strikes at the right angle it will slip under a disc...

not to mention the fact that armored vehicle crews are exposed to accidents with oils and hot oht's and oha's (forms of hydraulic oil) that breaks down the adhesive that hold the disc in place.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I recently wrote a letter to Pinnacle Armor management regarding their "LE and Military Only" policy... they have not replied. I have concluded that they are an gun-control organization in disguise. Maybe I am way off, but I can't help but to look at them with severe scrutiny...

my concerns stemmed from the fact that I can't get a response from them.

Gimme a break? They don't want to sell to non-LEO civilians and they don't reply to you and so you assume they are a gun control organization? Just what sort of gun control do you feel they are exercising? Would it not be an armor control organization instead?

Calling them a gun control organization reminds me of the 1950s when if you didn't like somebody, you claimed they were Communist. It didn't matter if they were or not as the point was to damage their reputation by labelling them in a negative manner.

 

[Titan6]

Dragonskin = Very bad. Recalled. Not in use in theater any more.

You want some? Keep bothering them and they will sell you some I bet. If they think your surviving family members won't sue them that is.

 

[PvtPyle]

There is lots of stuff I wont sell to civilians. Mainly it is to limit our liability exposure. CS grenades are legal, but you aren't getting one from me! Their choice to only sell to LEO/Mil is their choice. I would not buy one because of the fabricated test results and the fact that last I heard DOJ had jerked their rating.

But if you want armor, come see us. We have lots of styles and we will sell that to the good guys! But I think you are letting the tinfoil get a little tight with the leaps you are making about them being a gun control organization and that crap.

 

[akodo]

I suspect 2 things.

#1 They have an H&K attitude where the 'average joe' doesn't deserve their toys.

#2 They want to have better control of who/what is going to be testing their product.

 

[heron]

Maybe they haven't updated their website in a while, but it looks like they're still selling it . . .

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

. . . new and improved, maybe?

 

[geist]

i use to think that this armor was not chosen because of back door agreements with the other manufacturers and people on the inside.

if you notice in all the videos of this armor. like futureweapons. all tests are done exactly front on and in perfect condition. armor doesnt get hot or wet or have things typical of combat enviorment like diesel getting spilled on it.


dragonskin will work. but only under perfect conditions. so why pay signficantly more money for something that doesnt work under all conditions and is heavier?

 

[Seenterman]

Is there inexpensive (not cheap) body armor on the market for civilians? I saw on cheaper than dirt vest for sale for like 200 - 400 (I forget actual price) which wasn't a horrible price but they had some disclaimer about being old or used body armor. Not something I would trust my life with . . .

 

[-v-]

If you google around, you can pritty quickly find websites selling new vests for ~$150+ each. As for older vests, as long as they have never been shot, they are still good. If it passed DoJ certification then, it is still valid now. Kevlar and Spectra are very chemically stable under normal wear conditions and will not loose any relevant amount of strength with age. Also considering most vests are 30+ ply or more, and it only takes about 4-5 plies of Kevlar to stop a .357 at the muzzle, there's plenty of redundancy in the vests.