Dragon Skin Body Armor: Too good for civilians?

[RP88]

I remember it failing under the following circumstances:
-extreme heat
-while wearer is in a sit-down position
-got defeated by most full-sized rifle bullets (7.62x51 to x54R and up)

as to whether or not the pics and claims came from a verified source, or what source that was, I don't have a clue.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

As for older vests, as long as they have never been shot, they are still good

It is my understanding Zylon (the first gen stuff) degrades, which was the cause of the second chance lawsuit.


I must reiterate, the test results for the heat were .gov ones not published to the public, there is a senator looking into the whole test to see what is up.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

The kevlar used in vests has a lifespan of about 2 years. After which the chemical DOES break down and becomes useless. This is a FACT, and is also why LEO and Military do not use it any longer than that. This is also why you can get used vests online, from LE, or from a mil.surplus store for about $20. Argue all you want, but know this. IT IS A FACT, not an opinion. I have tested these used vests because I got taken to the cleaners on one and didn't believe it. Picked up several, fired at them, and they are 98% ineffective.

 

[22lr]

This begs the question who would trust there life to a wash out company like pinnacle. They cant win military contracts so they discredit the military personal and force it down there throats. I wouldn't tough there products with a 10 foot pole.

IT FAILED MILITARY SPEC TESTS

 

[kd7nqb]

is is also why you can get used vests online, from LE, or from a mil.surplus store for about $20.

Seriously most only vests are 175 and up not any where near the $20 you claim. Also I thought it was a matter of zytel degrading not Kevlar. And I dont know any LEO agencies that issue new vests every 2 years.

 

[benEzra]

Kevlar does degrade if exposed to moisture/humidity, which is why kevlar panels are wrapped in a moisture-impermeable sheath. If the sheath degrades and moisture/humidity (produced in copious amounts by the wearer) gets in, the kevlar starts losing strength.

Spectra (UHDPE) is much less susceptible to moisture-related degradation than Kevlar is (which is why they use the stuff for supertanker mooring lines, among other things) but Spectrashield vests are much less common than Kevlar vests, which most departments are more familiar with.

 

[solareclipse]

from what i gathered pinnacle does not sell to civilians, period. any armor.

there are others that do though

 

[WVMountainBoy]

My 2 cents are that if a company wants to sell to LEO or military only then that is who they sell to. The best part of freedom is the right to choose. We can't rant about our freedoms and then turn and tell a company whom they can, can't, and should do business with.

 

[redneckrepairs]

I recently wrote a letter to Pinnacle Armor management regarding their "LE and Military Only" policy... they have not replied. I have concluded that they are an gun-control organization in disguise.

Now there is a stretch . Both the forum rules and common decency preclude me from addressing this in the manner it deserves .

I sir will suggest that just because a company makes a marketing decision, it does not make the company an asset to " them " . They choose not to sell armor to you or me , that is fine , your choice is to buy no products from them untill they do . You know kinda like you do with HK and the neat toys there .
I wore vests for years as an le , vests i bought . I still have several ( like ccw guns the first seldom suits ) . Today i dont wear and dont want to wear any vest , to me they , like my duty belt are part of a footlocker for the kids/grandkids .
If you are really worried about not being sold the latest fad in " body armor " i will just respectfully suggest you get a different hobby and leave it at that .

 

[strambo]

I say let the actual soldiers in the sandbox make reports not rehash a .gov press release.

Heck no, I don't want to wear that heavy, overrated (near urban myth status) crap. I'll be happy with my "lowest bidder" armor in Iraq this year, just as I was happy with it in A-Stan 2 years ago.

Our vests and plates are very good and by no means "cheap" or lowest bidder. I wouldn't want Dragonskin even if it worked as advertised...because it weighs like 40 friggin' lbs! It better stop bullets since you will be a sitting duck.

It seems trendy to think the military is screwing over soldiers with cheap crap and not letting them buy their own uber-super-high speed life-saving armor. Not true, certainly not since initial supply shortages caught up to demand.

The concept is good (great?)...in 5 yrs it may mature into an effective system with superior protection at comparative weight to our current armor.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

strambo, thank you for your post and service,
that's all I wanted somebody who was actually there to make a statement on it,

 

[rob_s]

Dragon Skin Body Armor: Too good for civilians?

Dragon Skin Body Armor: Too ****ty for anyone

 

[rob_s]

The kevlar used in vests has a lifespan of about 2 years. After which the chemical DOES break down and becomes useless.

Can you please post a copy of your chemical engineering degree and a copy of the chemical analysis that you performed to determine this?

 

[ThrottleJockey]

http://ston.jsc.nasa.gov/collections/TRS/_techrep/TM104814.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TX9-4TRK0HN-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f278db9e0bd98b42f97b558ccd46e8bd
http:
//www.ssgloves.com/html/techinfo-no03.html
Above you will find some "simple to understand" data about kevlar. I am currently unable to locate the site I purchased mine from over 3 years ago, however, I assure you, they were $20 each, and could not be sold as protective due to their age and degradation. Also if you call around to various law enforcement agencies and ask, you will find that you can purchase their used vests "for testing and nostalgic purposes only". Also, the army surplus store near my home sells unissued kevlar vests for around $50, with the disclaimer that they are in no way protective due to age and degradation. Not to mention the ones I have full of holes!

 

[rockhound758]

Interesting information, ThrottleJockey, and compelling. I worked for AlliedSignal's division that made Spectra, and I really liked the armor...not sure if it's susceptible to light exposure as well but it might be. I think polycarbonate "glass" is the same, isn't it?

As for the OP, I understand the frustration but I think besides the fact that they're probably busy with large orders (or refining their product), if I was in their shoes I'd be leery of selling to you (or any other individuals) as well for liability reasons. For all they know, the next time they hear of their product and you will be in a news story where you went ballistic (literally), protected by their armor. I know you're a normal person, but THEY don't know that and they do absolutely have the right to restrict their sales however they want. Frustrating, I know, but I understand it.

 

[hksw]

The kevlar used in vests has a lifespan of about 2 years. After which the chemical DOES break down and becomes useless.

Can you please post a copy of your chemical engineering degree and a copy of the chemical analysis that you performed to determine this?

IMO, you don't need a ChE degree to note the effects of degradation on man made products. You just have to look around you. It will be true for all products.

When you take compounds from nature and break them apart then reform them with other elements and chemicals, they will no longer be in their natural state. Over time, the components of the produced compounds (usually in higher states of energy) will have a tendency to get back to states normally found in nature (lower states of energy) if you give them the opportunity to do so. This occurs mostly chemically and photocatalytically and sometimes just by the molecules and/or elements re-arranging themselves. As with all things, time and temperature are big factors. Environment also plays a big roll. One way around this is to store the man made product in a vacuum and leave it in the dark. Not very useful at that point but it can be done.

(Just so happens I do have a degree in ChE and have done some work on heat aging organic compounds but am reluctant to post any documents on the web.)

 

[PvtPyle]

TJ, lets address them each one at a time. If you paid $20 for a vest, it was crap and probably made from factory seconds. I would love to know the name of the company that sold it to you and what the manufacturer of the vest was. Having sold Point Blank and PPI, and been to numberous LEO shoots of old vests that had been retired after the normal 5 year circulation, the ones that had been exposed to salt water and other extremes had some penetration issues but were still able to stop the rounds they were rated for. Back face deformation was the predominant issue.

Second, the NSAS report lets compair apples to apples. We are not using vests in an oxygen rich artificial atmosphere. We are also not using vests at 300-650* C where the decomposition of the material is an issue. If I were in that environment the longevety of my vest is the least of my concerns. And since this report is from 1995 it bears even less importance on the issue since vest composition has been changed and upgraded significantly since then.

Link 2 is also irrelevant since it deals with a type of kevlar (there is more than one type, you know that right?), and again we are at temps over 400* C. and none of it discusses the ability of the layered material to stop bullets of fragmentation.

And finally, link 3. What exactly does a knife resistant glove, made from a different fiber than what vests are made from have to do with the ability of a vest to stop a bullet at temps under 800* F which is where this test starts.

If you are going throw out comparisons to support your claims, make sure that they do the following:

1) Use the same materials that is used in modern kevlar blend vests.
2) Use tests that are more along the lines of reality. A vest exposed to realistic temps for extended periods of time.
3) And most of all, deal with said materials to stop bullets and fragments over extended use.

I am no longer a salesman of these armors, but I am an end user and have been since 1988. I have seen dozens of vests of various ages tested and even ones way out of date still stopped the round they were tested for (with the exception of the good old Zylon vests).

But maybe you should post your individual test data so we can see how you tested your vests. I am willing to bet your tests had nothing to do with the way Agencies or militaries test their equipment.

And if you trust your life to a $25-175 vest.... Well that tells me how much you value your life. Don't be suprised when you get bad results. You bought bad product.

 

[Mantis86]

Purchase

Is there any place you can get the Dragon Skin armor?

 

[essayons21]

The real question should be, why do you want to buy dragon skin? Yeah its flexible, but make sure you get shot from straight on, not at an angle.

The fatal flaw with the design is that it is easily defeated by most rounds when they impact at an angle of less than 30 degrees from parallel.

Don't ask me for a cite, this is firsthand from an officer who took part in the tests. Much of the reason there was so much fuss over the US Army tests was because the low angle impacts were not part of the original published test.

 

[Tirod]

Writing a letter with a half dozen rhetorical questions basically attacking their marketing position - and there's no response? You got exactly what you deserved.

You are under no guarantee that you can buy anything you want in life. Pinnacle has no obligation to entertain your request, and after the hatchet job made of it, probably enjoyed just filing it away under "Why we don't sell to wannabees."

As pointed out, the cost/benefits ratio is steep. Maybe, just maybe, non buyers have been dealt the better hand. Buy a regular vest and be happy. It's not weak because there is no gap parallel to the plates, something that has been used against mythical dragons, too.

Kevlar has been used in tires for decades with millions of miles of belting exposed to heat, humidity, and pressure for years. If this stuff breaks down under those conditions, why is it still being used? And retreaded, too?

OR, is aging a manufacturer's concept that provides them with a new contract every few years?

BTW, were the shooters in the LA bank robbery wearing new or used armor? Which brand? Didn't that stuff work?

See how a bunch of questions comes off annoying? Does anybody not get that?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

It's not whether or not its used or whether it might work. It's whether you are willing to trust your life to something that can be scientifically shown to lose strength over a certain period of time. It's not an on/off switch. The vests aren't 100% effective, and then 100% worthless the day they expire. The expiration times are set to be a period where the wearer can be confident in the integrity of the vest. After that period, yeah it may work. But there's a much bigger chance it may not. And professionals who's job makes them being in the line of fire, like LEOs and the military, have decided that it's not worth it to trust a soldier or officer's life to something that might work ok after a certain period of time.

 

[Autolycus]

For the original poster, do you not buy ammo from Winchester since they do have ammo that is marked only for sale to LEO/MIL. However it still ends up in civilian hands? What about FORD since they have cars only available to LEOs?

 

[Justin]

To the OP, the entire premise of your letter is flawed and incorrectly accusatory. Were I the person at Dragon Skin who received it in the mail, I'd have immediately put it in the round file.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I can't believe that this old thread is still alive....

To the OP, the entire premise of your letter is flawed and incorrectly accusatory. Were I the person at Dragon Skin who received it in the mail, I'd have immediately put it in the round file.

I wholeheartedly disagree, and frankly I couldn't possibly care less about what they did with my email. "LE/Military Only" sales restrictions should be ruled only by law. When a company decides that they wont sell to me even though they have no legal obligation to restrict the sale, that makes them an "anti" plain and simple.

It is the same mentality that other "anti's" have when they tell us that loathsome serfs are not important or responsible enough to own guns. I will not give my business to these firms. It's like OpsGear refusing to sell certain body armor to civilians even though it is not legally restricted. I quit buying things from them too. It is not a companies job to dictate my level of worth or competence.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It is not a companies job to dictate my level of worth or competence.

You know, I had not considered the notion that if a company won't well me a product that it somehow dictates my level of worth or competence. I thought that was determined by the make and model of gun on my hip based on what I have read on various forums.

Instead, I just consider the company in a less than flattering light. After all, any company that willingly limits sales would seem to have a really poor business plan. This is especially true given the fact that the military won't touch the armor. Just who are they selling it to? I don't seem to recall Dragon Skin having a log of big account police contracts, but maybe I am wrong.