Drawing a gun= criminal lag time

[Webbj0219]

I watched this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5n7inTI1dc yesterday, from the general discussion forum. What got me thinking was 5:00 mins in. It reminded me of the two times I had to threaten someone with a gun in self defense. In the video you can hear the guy pounding the door down and once the homeowner says he has a gun the pounding stops momentarily. Thats what I experienced. In both my cases they took a few steps back and stood there for a good five seconds. You could almost see the gears turning. Its about the equivelant of playing chess with someone thats got there strategy all planned out, then outa the blue you call CHECK. Maybe not quite CHECKMATE, but definetely CHECK. They have to go back and re-strategize around the gun. They may decide to continue the attack, maybe thinking that you wont shoot or they dont care. Or they may decide to retreat. But the key element I see everytime Ive seen a gun drawn unexpectedly was that pause. On the other hand LEO probably wont experience this since the criminal knows the LEO has a gun and has worked that into their plan.

I was wondering how a conceal carry holder might use this to their advantage? Or if anyone else has had an experience like this? Or contrary to it?

 

[Sam1911]

We normally call this the disrupting their "OODA loop." (Nod to John Boyd.)

In every interaction the actors must Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act -- then Observe their results, re-Orient, make a new Decision, etc.

The criminal almost always has the drop on you to some degree. They get to Observe, Orient, and Decide usually before you've begun to Observe them. However, if you do something that is outside of their expectations, you may short-circuit their loop and cause them to have to revert to Observation again to figure out what the heck just went wrong with their plan and what they're going to do about it.

That's the lag. And that lag is important because it give you time to hustle along through your own loop to make your reaction.

In this case, it happens pretty early on in the encounter, and you gained more than a couple of seconds.

 

[SSN Vet]

I think this is an interesting topic, as it seems the "conventional wisdom" is to keep your SD firearm concealed untill deadly force is warranted, and then to deploy that force without hesitation untill the threat is stopped.

But in the scenario described above, acting to reveal that you are armed serves to throw a monkey wrench into your adversaries plans.

But how the BG responds and adapts his plan, is not for sure....

Does he disengage to rob, rape and pillage another day, or does he step up the assault and immediately start shooting.

It seems to me that you might incurr a certain amount of additional danger by trying to avoid a conflict after the conflict has already begun.

Perhaps the decision to reveal that you are armed should depend to some degree on whether or not you need that 2 second delay to get into a more advantagious postition or to evacuate others to a safer position.

Unfortunately, you don't have a lot of time to think things through.

 

[strambo]

The home scenario is also different because you have a barrier that provides temporary protection for both of you (unless/until it's broken in).

On the street, there is nothing between you but air, so the gun comes out when it's "go time" maybe they turn tail and run, but they better do it fast because so long as they stay still thinking about it the deadly force threat that made you draw is still the same.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Strambo, that "barrier" is better stated, 'concealment', because there is very little protection afforded from a frame house. The difference is that by announcing you intent, whether or not you have a gun, you are letting them inside your loop, with the hope they run away.

And in doing so, you are inviting them to up the ante, then if they don't run, they are there to kill you, your five seconds might just be ended by 15 rounds of 9mm. I'm of the opinion of not announcing your intent or that you are armed.

In the open, the delay is shorted because there is no calculating whether or not you are bluffing, and the cost/payoff of calling it. Also, if the formed intention of using deadly force is already there, ie. cops/know to have a gun, don't expect a delay, once the threat is identified (OO) the action has already been decided (DA) and the bad guy defaults to gunfire.

 

[uspJ]

And in doing so, you are inviting them to up the ante, the they don't run, they are there to kill you, your five seconds might just be ended by 15 rounds of 9mm. I'm of the opinion of not announcing your intent or that you are armed.

In this type of situation I really don't see a problem with letting them know your intent. If you don't say anything and they are attempting force their way in they will most definetly continue. If you make it known that you are armed and ready with the intent to defend yourself if they proceed you have now left the decision of fight or flight to them. I'm not saying I would stand in front of the door and do this, I would do it from a defensive position that at the very least provided good concealment so that I may still have the element of surprise should they force their way inside.

If a situation should arise that they were allready in my home then no warning would be given. I would take a defensive position with whatever firearm was with me and engage when the threat presented itself.

In the open, the delay is shorted because there is not calculating whether or not you are bluffing, and the cost/payoff of calling it. Also, if the formed intention of using deadly force is already there, ie. cops/know to have a gun, don't expect a delay, once the threat is identified (OO) the action has already been decided (DA) and the bad guy defaults to gunfire.

I agree with your thoughts on the lack of lag time between cops/bg. The BG most likley has a plan of action concerning the cops a "If they show up I'll shoot." mentality that was considered before they began the criminal act.

I would suspect however that the lag would be increased when dealing with a person who is CC'ing. They most likely select a target thinking it would be easy prey (who wants a hard day at the office?) when the target then turns the tables and presents itself as an equal threat the bg then must evaluate and calculate the risk potential of should he continue vs retreat.

This is the time the victim needs to capitalize on and start getting some distance and movement into play if possible. Making yourself an even harder or more unavailable target will hopefully cause retreat on the bg's part. I also advocate loud verbal commands showing the intent to defend yourself, you'd be surprised the crowd you can gather when you start screaming at someone to "Stay back or I'll shoot!".

 

[Al Thompson]

they are there to kill you

If it's an assassination attempt, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Compared to an attempted home invasion (which is a very remote possibility, IMHO), the odds of someone coming to kill you is just off the charts. If that is a viable threat, you'll know it.

 

[strambo]

The barrier is a barrier between them and you; ie. a house. I did not say "cover". It is 100% concealment though, which is very effective in its own right. The barrier does totally change the nature of the game.

Is a criminal gonna start spraying your house from the outside? Doubtful (unless it was a drive-by to begin with), but they might? I'm not really sold either way, not my scenario. I'd never announce/show out in the open...can see an advantage if I'm inside and they aren't yet.

 

[Creature]

I intend to use this lag to put more distance or more "barrier" between myself and the antogonist. If the antagonist continues to pursue or attack, this fact will become very important later if I am forced to discharge my firearm in self-defense.

 

[skifast]

The reseting of the OODA loop is also part of the thinking behind moving, drawing and shooting. If you run fast laterally or at the bad guy, he has to go through the loop again. It buys you time to draw and initiate the attack, rather than being the second person to shoot. It also takes you out of the line of fire or attack.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Ok, so to clarify,
I agree with the barrier is a barrier, I was also pointing out, that it isn't necessarily much of a barrier to bullets.

Second, on the kill you part, the criminal, when confronted with a gun, and he doesn't flee, is going to fight, and he now has no reason to keep you alive/let you live,

In other words, if you announce you have a gun, and he doesn't run, you can safely assume that the BG is now there to kill you.

 

[Girodin]

In other words, if you announce you have a gun, and he doesn't run, you can safely assume that the BG is now there to kill you.

Or he didn't hear, or understand, or speak English or that you were bluffing or ???

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

In other words, if you announce you have a gun, and he doesn't run, you can safely assume that the BG is now there to kill you.

Seems like that would strenghen your case of self defense in the aftermath. "I announced I had a gun, he had the chance to leave but he pressed on, I had to stop him"

 

[Sam1911]

Or he didn't hear, or understand, or speak English or that you were bluffing or ???

Well, perhaps we should accept that a life of violent crime is attended by certain inherant risks...

 

[Shadow 7D]

Damn, Sam, beat me to it.

Yeah, well, I didn't say I would gun them down from behind, rather that I don't think barging into a situation yelling "I've got a gun,TOO" is the smartest thing. From the tactical stand point enveloping them with numerical superiority and firepower is preferred. After that, you just try your best.

 

[Webbj0219]

Also wanted to add. Its rarely in your best interest to draw your gun if your not ready to use it. Didnt want to give the wrong impression, that you can draw your gun purely as a diversion. The rule I go by is that the gun only comes out if I would be justified in using it, otherwise it stays concealed. I see my gun as an implement of peace. It should never be used to escelate a situation. Only to de-escelate it. Or in other words you use your weopon if you find yourself in a mortal situation, never to make an otherwise situation mortal. If you do than you have blood on your hands. You wont be inocent of bloodshed. Thats how I see it.

Didnt mean to steer off course with this post. Just thought It needed a bit of a desclaimer. Not to take drawing your weopon lightly. It should be about the same level as using it, and both should be taken very seriously.