"Dum-Dum" bullets for revolver shooting

[Bama Drifter]

So I'm wondering your thoughts on loading up the ole "Dum Dum" cartridge. For those under 30, it means setting a LRN or SWC into the case upside down so you have the flat bullet base sticking out. Historically, this idea originated at the Dum Dum Arsenal outside of Calcutta in British East India.

Thus far I have had moderate success flipping the .429" 240gr RNFPs for my Ruger SBH. I keep my charges moderate at 8.6gr of Unique. No spitting lead at the forcing cone nor other issues. Gotta love the FAT holes in the target, too. Just finished loading up a sample batch for my Detective Spl using MBC Match .38 SWC bullets with 4.1gr Unique seated to 1.48" OAL. The .38 SWC having a bevel base makes me think it will shoot like greased lightning. OK... whaddaya think fellas? Anyone done it before? Nuts? Thanks in advance.

 

[dbmjr1]

Try loading a HBWC backwards in a .357, or hot 38 special.


At close range it is said to make a huge, . . . , impression.


I've got an older box of Duplex ammunition. Multiple Munition Industries. Two slugs, one round. .357 mag.

 

[FROGO207]

Well I use the standard double ended wad cutters in the 38 SPL/357 so no need there. But a full wad cutter in 44 is harder to find so if I wanted to load one I would just get a wad cutter mold made I would think. The SWC should work just as well backwards as forward accuracy wise but remember to reduce the propellant as the volume inside will be less than if loaded normally. Have fun.

 

[Bama Drifter]

Ah, very true on case capacity being impacted... I suppose that is my main reason for keeping charges close to base minimum. For a fella wanting a stout defensive .38 load, would the heavy wadcutter be better than a light (125gr) hollow point? The old timers I talk with swear that you can't open up 125gr Gold Dot or XTP bullets without the .357mag velocity pushing them.

 

[Walkalong]

Just buy full wadcutters if you want pretty holes or a bigger meplat for the caliber.

you can't open up 125gr Gold Dot or XTP bullets without the .357mag velocity

They make Gold Dots for .38 Spl velocities. Dunno about the XTP.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just buy full wadcutters if you want pretty holes or a bigger meplat for the caliber.

They make Gold Dots for .38 Spl velocities. Dunno about the XTP.

Exactly what I was going to say, just load a full wadcutter to more than target velocities and you will be well armed. With the flat base it will be more accurate than a LRN set upside down.

 

[silicosys4]

The old timers I talk with swear that you can't open up 125gr Gold Dot or XTP bullets without the .357mag velocity pushing them.

I can attest that 125gr. Xtp's at 900fps out of a 4" model 10 into either wet newspaper and water will indeed open up reliably. Not as far as say, a 125gr. out of a 9mm, but I did get expansion.

 

[Rule3]

Thus far I have had moderate success flipping the .429" 240gr RNFPs for my Ruger SBH. I keep my charges moderate at 8.6gr of Unique..

Ummmmm.??

Out of that gun what's the point or purpose?? With the bullets available today why even bother??

 

[USSR]

When bullets like these can be easily made, why mess around with half-baked measures?:banghead:



Don

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note, both Hornady and Speer still sell swaged 158gr SWC-HP bullets that will reliably expand at moderate velocities compared to Cast bullets. I use both depending on available but I prefer the Hornady for accuracy. The Speer however have a shallow crimp groove whereas the Hornady do not and have a knurled bottom half. The accuracy difference is not great and I can be happy with either. Midsouth Shooters sells both. (and sometimes a third brand too)

 

[Bama Drifter]

To answer Rule3, I have a bunch of 44 RNFPs leftover from a shortage buying spree (purchased locally) before I discovered THR discount to MBC, etc.

RN bullets naturally tear ugly holes in my targets whereas I prefer tidy, clean round holes...

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[Traffer]

Interesting, I have been under the impression since I was a child that a dum dum bullet was a bullet that had been cut in a x shape at the tip. Deeply so the bullet would section into 4 pieces on contact creating 4 separate wound channels. We used to experiment with them in 22 when I was like 10 yrs old. I even described one to a police officer who told me dum dum's were illegal. So what is the x shaped tip bullet really called?

 

[Malamute]

So I'm wondering your thoughts on loading up the ole "Dum Dum" cartridge. For those under 30, it means setting a LRN or SWC into the case upside down so you have the flat bullet base sticking out. Historically, this idea originated at the Dum Dum Arsenal outside of Calcutta in British East India.

The thread is interesting enough, though I don't think that is correct information.

The term was used in the media in the 70s to try to demonize expanding ammo, though of course its been around much longer. The media seemed to think theyd discovered some secret when they started using the term to (correctly) describe soft point or hollow point ammo, but pretty much nobody in the firearms world used it.

The term seems to be widely misunderstood. The comment above about so-called dum-dum ammo being illegal is, besides having not much real meaning, false, except in the case of New Jersey prohibiting hollowpoint pistol ammo. Don't know if other places ever had any prohibition on expanding ammo, but the term dum-dum means little other than an expanding bullet.

This correlates to my understanding

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet

 

[mdi]

BTDT! Tried round nose 158 bullets loaded backwards in my 38s and 357s, total fail. Inaccurate; couldn't keep all shots on a paper plate at 12 yds. Didn't have a chrony then but the rounds "seemed" to vary, recoil and very slight muzzle blasts variations. Tried the HBWC backwards too. Mostly fail. Poor to fair accuracy at 10-12 yds. Unpredictable performance. Fired into dry magazines and wet newspaper at short range (2" 38). Some the cavities would collapse, some would sheer off the skirt, and some had the cavity clog and just acted like a solid. Very few offered the "huge mushroom" that we thought would happen.

My "house gun" is loaded with 150 gr. DEWCs over a hefty load of W231. Runs a bit over 900 fps, IIRC, and presents a large flat nose for tissue damage and less over penetration...

FWIW, my reading mentioned the British cut/split the noses of their round nose bullets, at the Dum Dum arsenal, to aid to expansion, an early attempt at expanding ammo. I also read that some GIs would file the tip off their FMJ ammo for more expansion/tissue damage...

 

[Rule3]

To answer Rule3, I have a bunch of 44 RNFPs leftover from a shortage buying spree (purchased locally) before I discovered THR discount to MBC, etc.

RN bullets naturally tear ugly holes in my targets whereas I prefer tidy, clean round holes...

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Yes we must be Tidy I was thinking SD purpose stuff.

I also believe the Dum Dum was this:

"Expanding bullets were given the name Dum-dum, or dumdum, after an early British example produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal, near Calcutta, India by Captain Neville Bertie-Clay. There were several expanding bullets produced by this arsenal for the .303 British cartridge, including soft point and hollow point designs."

 

[ArchAngelCD]

BTDT! Tried round nose 158 bullets loaded backwards in my 38s and 357s, total fail. Inaccurate; couldn't keep all shots on a paper plate at 12 yds. Didn't have a chrony then but the rounds "seemed" to vary, recoil and very slight muzzle blasts variations. Tried the HBWC backwards too. Mostly fail. Poor to fair accuracy at 10-12 yds. Unpredictable performance. Fired into dry magazines and wet newspaper at short range (2" 38). Some the cavities would collapse, some would sheer off the skirt, and some had the cavity clog and just acted like a solid. Very few offered the "huge mushroom" that we thought would happen.

I read an article where they tested bullets with all different damage for accuracy. The conclusion was, the bullet base was most important to good accuracy. Small dings to the base of the bullet would greatly effect accuracy while seemingly extensive damage to bullet nose had little effect on accuracy. That's why I mentioned accuracy in my other post, #6. I was thinking the round nose being used as a base would destroy accuracy. Your report seems to confirm that. Thanks for the first hand report.

 

[BWB]

From Wikipedia:
Soon after the introduction of smokeless powder to firearms, full metal jacket bullets were introduced to prevent lead fouling in the bore caused by the higher pressures and velocities when used with soft lead bullets.[14] However, it was soon noticed that such small caliber rounds were less effective at wounding or killing an enemy than the older large caliber soft lead bullets. Within the British Indian Army, the Dum Dum arsenal produced a solution: the jacketing was removed from the nose of the bullet, creating the first soft point bullets. Since the Mark II jacket did not cover the base of the round this could potentially lead to the jacketing being left in the barrel. This potential problem resulted in the rejection of the Dum-dum design and led to independent development of the Mark III, Mark IV (1897) and Mark V (1899) .303 British rounds, which were of the hollow-point design, with the jacket covering the base; while these were made in Britain, not at the Dum-Dum arsenal, the name "Dum-dum" had already become associated with expanding bullets, and continued to be used to refer to any expanding bullets. The expanding bullets expanded upon impact to a diameter significantly greater than the original .312 inch (7.92 mm) bullet diameter, producing larger diameter wounds than the full-metal-jacketed versions. The Mark IV was successful enough in its first use in the battle of Omdurman that British soldiers issued with the standard Mark II bullets began to remove the top of the jacket, converting the Mark II bullets into improvised Dum-dum types.[15]

 

[hdwhit]

Since we're going to cite Wikipedia without looking up and considering the other articles linked to it, let's close the loop with the Wikipedia article about the Dum Dum Arsenal itself, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Dum_Arsenal, which states, in relevant part:

"It was at this arsenal that Captain Neville Bertie-Clay developed the Mark IV cartridge, the so-called 'Dum-dum bullet', a soft-point bullet, and a hollow point version designed to mushroom on striking. This was one of the first series of expanding bullets for military use. They were later banned in warfare by the Hague Convention as being "too inhumane."​

According to the article, 1) the term 'Dum Dum' becomes associated with expanding [jacketed] bullets because it was where they were first developed for military use, 2) the Mark IV cartridge was developed at Dum Dum, and 3) it is not simply the loading of an inverted bullet. Since this article along with the other two cited by other posters are NOT completely in agreement, none of them should be considered to be solely authoritative and should be harmonized and considered together along with their underlying source material.

It should also be noted that the Hague Convention (1899)'s Declaration 3 which prohibited the use of "bullets that can easily expand" was not ratified by the United States. See https://verdragenbank.overheid.nl/en/Verdrag/Details/002423

 

[Bama Drifter]

OK I definitely stand corrected on nomenclature. Hadn't seen the bit from Wikipedia before now. Fwiw, my loads aren't intended for long range, nor competition use. I feel they exceed expectations inside of 15 yds, aka "conversation distance". Like I said in OP, YMMV. Thanks

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