Duplicating 168gr 308 Black Hills Match Ammo

[tkcomer]

Trying to duplicate 168gr Black Hills Match ammo for my DPMS LR-308B. I “hear” they use Ramshot's Tac powder and Sierra 168 Mks. That's the same combo I'm using. Advertised velocity is 2650 FPS, but they don't mention what gun they used. I started at 39.5grs of powder and in half grain increments, went to the max of 42grs on the Sierra chart. None of my loads are as accurate as the BH loads. Some are close, but just not there. Could it be the mixture of brass I'm using? It's a combo of different years of LC with some Winchester and OFV thrown in. You can see some results here: http://www.pixagogo.com/9751124271 Granted conditions were not good that day and the particle board blew back on some of the targets making measuring groups hard. These are 10 shot groups shot at a half inch square. Any ideas?

 

[Coltdriver]

I don't think it is possible for any production ammo to be perfect out of the box for every rifle out there.

Look up the "optimum charge weight" method of creating a round and dial the round in for your rifle. You will have to work through several different powders to get the absolute most out of it but you will have the best luck getting to what works for your rifle using this method.

 

[tkcomer]

Just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong “if” Black Hills uses this combo of bullets and powder. I'm used to loading for my 700 Remmy. It doesn't give a crap what I put in it. At first, I thought I had a 2” shooter at best. But the Black Hills ammo shows the gun will shoot. I'm not expecting quarter inch groups, but around an inch would make me feel better. Than again, maybe I have too much hope for this gun.

 

[JDGray]

168gr SMKs, with a dose of Varget with be plenty accurate. I load 43-44gr Varget in Fed brass, 2640-2700fps avg.

 

[Geno]

You need to use the same brass for one, not mix and match. Also, trim and turn it, true the primer hole, weigh and sort the brass. Now you're ready to begin loading for accuracy tests. Regarding which powder, lots of fellas use lots of different powders for the .308 Win. I would venture to say you're having issues primary due to mixed-brands of brass.

Good luck, and let us know what you develop. You might want to send a PM to Zak Smith and ask him to weigh-in here...the man knows the .308 Win about as well as anyone.

Geno

 

[Coltdriver]

I used the optimum charge method on a pencil barreled Ruger M77 and got down to quarter sized groups with it. I am using 165 grain interlocks that are crimped. When I got to 44.4 grains of Varget, magic happened. It is worth a try.

 

[atlanticfire]

Im also using the 168 SMK with Varget and will probably never change it. Its worked great for my and the Savage 12 FTR.

 

[USSR]

None of my loads are as accurate as the BH loads. Some are close, but just not there. Could it be the mixture of brass I'm using? It's a combo of different years of LC with some Winchester and OFV thrown in.

tkcomer,

You will have 2 full grains difference in charge weight for the same basic velocity between LC and Winchester brass. I would use the Winchester brass for accuracy loads. I use 43.6gr of IMR4895 with Winchester brass, while LC brass only gets 41.5gr of the same powder.

Don

 

[NCsmitty]

At least give yourself a chance to develop accurate loads. It won't happen using a bunch of mixed brass. One brand of consistent brass will make a world of difference for starters.



NCsmitty

 

[tkcomer]

The brass is the variable I think. I have it trimmed back to around 1.95”. Bullets have a light crimp with the Lee FCD. Kinda frustrating the Remmy will shoot consistent 1” groups with the same load and with any brass I use, but this gun is kinda sporadic with my loads.

 

[45ACPUSER]

First off, BH uses a Hornady 168gr OTM, not the SMK. Next, they may use a NON CANISTER grade of TAC, ergo not available to you. Next, they use WW brass. You would need to start with chronographing BHA factory ammo. Then use that as a benchmark to work you loade up to.

Better yet, just get some Varget, BR2's, WW brass, hit the hodgdgon web site for data and work up a load!

 

[tkcomer]

Aaak! A Hornady bullet! That explains a lot. Thanks.

 

[tkcomer]

Been doing a little more research. Now I question the powder. On another website, a guy pulled one apart. 43.22grs of powder. That seems a little much for Tac. Powder looks like Tac, but could be 748. Bullet seems to be the Hornady 168 BTHP. At least I now know I was trying with the wrong bullet. I'll have to get the Hornady bullet and try again. I may have to use those SMKs for plinkers.

 

[Wil Terry]

You are mistaken on the ENTIRETY of your details, Sir.

 

[tkcomer]

This is the site I found: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1815692 Is this info wrong?

 

[Walkalong]

Anyone who can identify various ball powders by sight is fooling themselves. Besides, even if it is a non canister grade of Tac, the burn rate is unknown.

Best thing to do is use a powder known to be accurate in .308, and work up a load with it and a bullet your gun likes.

Seems folks agree that BH uses a Hornady pill, and your gun shot them well, so that would be a good one to try first.

Push it to the velocity you were getting with the factory stuff and it will probably shoot well. Worst thing is you may have to tweak it a little.

 

[Jim Watson]

I haven't tried any TAC, but two out of three barrels tested preferred extruded to Ball powders 748 or 2520. I have settled on Varget for .223 and .308 but there was little if any difference with 4895, 4064, or Re 15.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here's how I would do it:

1. start with all the same kind of brass

2. make sure said brass will work, IE, doesn't have any systematic problems I'll have to correct. If starting from scratch, I would use new Lapua (expensive but excellent) or Winchester (cheap and serviceable) brass.

3. use Federal 210M primers (or CCI BR2 alternatively)

4. use Varget

5. Start at a recommended starting load and work up to where velocity and accuracy were what I wanted.

If this recipe executed correctly does not shoot accurately in a rifle, there is a decent chance that nothing will shoot better.

There are .308 loads that are much better for long-range shooting than a 168 SMK at 2650 fps.

 

[tkcomer]

One thing I'm not after is velocity, just accuracy. My 223 guns seem to get worse at higher velocity. Then again, I may not get the accuracy I'm wanting out of this barrel. I'm sticking to 100 yards until I can do better.

 

[JDGray]

The SMKs you have will do the job. Amaxs are good too, but not better in my gun No need for different bullets, just consistant powder charges, case capacity(which I missed in your post) That will most likely get you in the ballpark. My handloads do better than GGM ammo, thats the fun part of reloading.

 

[WNTFW]

tkcomer,
All the ramshot powders I have look exactly the same. You cant tell by sight.

As an example I could tell you the difference between Tac, Varget and Reloder 15, if I knew for sure those were the only choices. . . not that the situation should ever arise. Telling the different Reloders apart wouldn't be something I would try.

Ultimately it shouldn't matter. You will do well to pick a good powder and work up a load. I know Picking a good powder is half the battle. (How do know it is good unless it shoots well?)

Varget is great. If you can get some, get some. You will never be stuck with it.

 

[45ACPUSER]

You are mistaken on the ENTIRETY of your details, Sir.

If you are refering to me, no I am not mistaken...I got it in a formal letter from BHA a couple summers ago....bullet, brass, and such was confirmed in writing....the powder was not confirmed by BHA.

The 308 168 OTM is a Hornady OTM and the 175 OTM is a SMK.

 

[Glockman22]

I pulled a Black Hills Match 175gr apart to see the powder and weigh it. It was 42.0 grains of stick powder. I'm attaching a photo that shows it on the left and Reloader-15 on the right. Anyone have ideas on what it may be other than the standard "non-canister" powder?

 

[Jim Watson]

If the color rendition is good, it looks like a Hodgdon-ADI powder.
42.0 is just under the Hodgdon maximum of 42.7 gr H4895 for a 175 gr bullet.

Also very close to IMR 8208, 42.5 gr maximum.

After that, you get into bulk lot powders or brands other than Hodgdon and IMR.

 

[JDGray]

That unknown powder looks like Varget, but who knows other than BH?