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EAA/Tanfoglio Witness frame size?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by kayak-man, Jun 15, 2020.

  1. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Pretty straightforward question, but my Google fu has been pretty weak on this topic.

    Super short version: is it true that the dimensions of the EAA Witness pistols are the same, even between the 9/40/357 sig guns and the 10/45 guns?

    Longer version:
    Lately I’ve become interested in adding a Sa/Da semi auto to the arsenal. Of course the Sigs are being considered, but I like the idea of the CZ75 clones made by Tanfoglio. All the reviews I’ve seen have said that the frame is the same size on all the calibers, but all of those reviews are written by people who have only handled the gun in one caliber, so I’m not ready to take that info at face value yet. Does anyone have any experience with both the 9mm and the 10mm versions of it? Are the dimensions actually identical? If so, does it feel more like the grip is thicker/deeper than the average 9mm, or thinner/shallower than the average 10 or 45?
    Thanks guys
     
  2. Reinz

    Reinz Member

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    I have a 10mm and a 38 Super that are identical. I have a 9 that is 20 years older that is buried deep in a safe, but I remember it feeling the same as the others.

    D8EB69D4-E836-41D7-8112-9BEA3BE0C932.png

    ^^^ 38 Super

    v v v 10 mm

    C64CC1E3-FB13-42A8-B5D1-801549FC4966.png


    As far as I can tell grip frame wise, my EAA/Tanfoglio, CZ 75/85, Shadow 2 all feel the same. To me, it’s the different type of grips that make them all feel a bit different.
     
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  3. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    At one time there were two frame sizes. Large and Small. As best I can remember the difference is in the frame and the mag well. They use 2 different size mags. Today I believe there is only two sizes. The Small frame and the Compact frame.

    If no one comes along with more informative replies try this site, https://czfirearms.us/index.php?board=27.0 they do a lot of Witness chat.

    I have a metal frame Witness 45acp that was imported in 1992. It's one of my favorites.
     
  4. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    Assuming you are talking about the full size metal frame witness, yes, they are all the same size. The smaller cartridge mags (9mm, .40) have a spacer in the back, but all of them lock into the same size frame the same way.

    Small frame guns are a thing in the international market but not in the US; they aren't sold here.

    You can change the feel/size of the frame significantly based on which grip panels you use, but it is never really going to be "small".
     
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  5. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Thanks for the input guys! I get this is never going to be a super slim grip, but is it going to be at least closer to a 1911 or glock 17 than a glock 20 or 21?
     
  6. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    1911 to me is tiny, it is very much bigger than that. Probably a little bigger than a g17.
     
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  7. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    Full-size Tanfoglios now marketed by EAA in the USA are all large frame guns, even in 9mm. Frame is the same as the .45. I've heard rumors that Tanfoglios marketed by IFG can be had in small frame size in 9mm in the USA.

    Your 20 years old Tanfoglio may actually be a small frame. The small frame is pretty much the same as the CZ-75, and the large frame is pretty much the same size as the CZ-97.

    I have a 9mm Tanfoglio Witness Limited. It is a large frame, and I can get magazines and uppers (slides/barrels/recoil springs/etc) for .45, 10mm, .40, .38 Super, and .22 LR. I can use the "Limited" conversion kit, or any of the other conversion kits for "large frame" guns. Most guns available (even used) are large frame, and any gun in 10 mm, .38 Super, or .45 will be a large frame gun for sure ("for sure" means "to the best of my understanding").
     
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  8. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    Thicker than a 1911. Don't have any experience with a Glock 20 or 21, but it feels less chunky than a Glock 17, so while it might actually be longer/thicker, being less "square" in the grip might make it feel a little slimmer.
     
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  9. railroader

    railroader Member

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    Small frame polymer 9mm witness pistols were imported a couple of years ago. I use to have one. They Come with a 16 round mag. The large frame come with a 17 round mag. Here's the UPC for the small frame polymer 741566603471. Armscor also imports the small frame witness pistols under their brand. https://armscor.com/firearms/ria/mapp-series/
     
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  10. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    FWIW, I have three steel Tanfoglios: two 9mm's and a 45acp.

    The two 9mm's are Israeli surplus. The 45 seems to be newer and is some kind of target version with fancy sights.

    All three are the same size. My FiL bought a CZ75 NiB a few years ago, and it is a little bit smaller than my Tanfoglios.

    I also have Sigs, Berettas, Rugers, etc. The Tanfoglios are my favorites of the lot, maybe even more than my 1911's.

    Here is one of the 9mm's:
     
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  11. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    Mauser lover, above, has done a good job of explaining what's now available.

    Until they introduced a .45 model, all of the Tanfoglios available came in 9mm and .40 and they had a frame similar in size to the full-size CZ-75.

    With the introduction of the .45 model, they enlarged the frame a bit, but continued to sell the smaller-framed models. Then they introduced the 10mm models. (I had a Witness Sport Long Slide in .40 (small frame) and in .45 (large frame), and the larger frame would accept a 10mm slide -- and I had one of those, too. I eventually moved on, but the Sport Long Slide was a nice gun, a design that led to the Match Xtreme and models that are popular in IPSC.

    Some years ago, the dropped the smaller frames in most markets, and now all of the Tanfoglio guns (mostly Witness models here in the U.S). use the same larger frames. The mags are all the same size, but they use spacers inside for the different calibers.

    (Some of the polymer guns may be offered the smaller frame, but I'm not sure about that.)
     
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  12. HankC

    HankC Member

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    Armscor assembles Tanfoglios imported by Rock Island are small frames that use CZ mags. RIA has Life Time Warranty on their Tanfoglios.
     
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  13. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    If you want a small frame tanfoglio, get a baby eagle. As far as grip size goes, I have a medium) large sized hand with skinny fingers. My witness match was one without the accessory rail and had ki d of thick, rubbery grips. It made for an uncomfortably large grip. I picked up some slim grips from Henning that made the gun feel like a 1911 size. I prefer the smaller frame, but these work. I believe the grip with the hennings is 1.20" wide, and with factory rubber is was 1.35"
     
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  14. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Ive got 2 small frame .40s, and had a P-S which was the small frame poly gun. The P-S felt much thinner, and fairly close to a 1911 in width, which I really dont like so got rid of it pretty quick.
    The "small" steel frames are wider, tho still not as wide as my 2011 or the large frame glocks ive shot.

    You might also look at the Canik/Tristar CZ clones. Ive been considering adding an P-120 to my collection to have a 9 a little shorter than my SFX.
     
  15. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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  16. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    Yes, please do, and let us know how it is. Ideally you will find out that it isn't quite as good as a Tanfoglio Witness Limited; because that would mean that I didn't waste a good bit of money earlier this year...

    I have a SAR K2 .45 and it is a really nice gun for the money. I'm guessing that the K12 is just as good as a Tanfoglio limited, albeit with slightly more limited aftermarket support. Many parts may swap over from Tanfoglio, but the parts might just be sorta close rather than actually being helpful.

    It looks like a small frame rather than being more like the SAR K2 .45 frame (which is pretty close to the large frame Tanfoglios).
     
  17. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    I mostly want to know what kind of rifling it has in it. I shoot lead and I hate that polygonal stuff. And it's going to have to be a significant upgrade off my limited match to make me switch. I really love the match. And the k12 sport looks ok, but it's the k12 sport x that really piqued my interest. https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/293...k/amp/pin/293226625740072287/&amp_expand=true
     
  18. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    It's my understanding -- which is based on the experience of a couple of shooters, one a pro, who regularly shoot lead in Glocks -- that a properly sized bullet in a polygonal barrel does OK.

    I think Glock (don't know about Tanfoglio) made their barrels and chambers slightly oversize to improve reliability and chambering.

    Most of the Tanfoglio models based on the CZ-75 design have standard land/grove barrels, but some of the more expensive models (like some of the Match versions) have standard or polygonal barrels. It will depend on which caliber you select.

    If you buy factory ammo, it's going to be a non-issue. If you plan to roill and shoot your own lead bullets, you will just have to find out about the barrel used in the model you're interested in. If you find a Tanfoglio/Witness model you like, and it has polygonal rifling, then this might help.

    From the Brian Enos forum (at brianenos.com/topic/70699-polygonal-rifling)

    "With polygonal rifled barrels you can used any type of bullets but if you use the hard cast bullets we suggest you to size them .001 or .002 in. larger than the standard caliber size. Best regards and have a nice week end.

    Customers Service. FRATELLI TANFOGLIO S.N.C. Via Valtrompia 39/41. 25063 Gardone Val Trompia (BS) - Italy​

    Many years back, when my son was going through BLET (training to become a cop), he used MY Glock 17 rather than the school's S&W 5906 semi-autos. They shot only LEAD in that program.

    We'd clean the gun after each range session, and saw a little lead build up, but nothing horrible. He had the second best scores in the class (only a current cop who was a gun enthusiast who had never been through a certification program did a little better.) They both used Glocks and shot the school's lead loads. And both guns ran beautifully. The schools S&W 5906s, which were showing some age and had seen a LOT of use, had a few problems, all quickly resolved.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
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