wally
Member
What color were the bad ones? I ask because what has come with mine are sort of a redish orange or orangish red depending on how you want to describe it.
--wally.
EAA Witness 10mm
- Thread starter Anna's Dad
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What color were the bad ones? I ask because what has come with mine are sort of a redish orange or orangish red depending on how you want to describe it.
--wally.
boomer1911a1
Member
Wally:
Black, IIRC.
Black, IIRC.
Don357
Member
wally
Member
Followup to message #18 in this thread
Well the only mag that didn't lose control and jam like the photo was the one I squeezed in the feed lips, but it wasn't reliable locking back on the last shot. Ran it four times, The other six mags all had the jam. The one I'd moved the feed lips closer together worked four times without failure whcih may not sound like much but I don't think it had ever emptied even once before without at least one of these jams.
The cartridge is up under the extractor, its just the round has moved up thru the feed lips and is nose up during feeding and fails to enter the chamber, catching the top of the barrel hood. This can't happen if the round says inside the feed lips until the forward motion releases it. Basic issue is that recoil forces are causing the round to move up thru the feed lips instead of being held parallel to them for feeding.
The mags are generally poorly made and can't handle the forces involved, thats the bottom line. I'll try crunching the rest of the mags and building up the follower notch with JB weld to get them locking back. If you get good mags you'lll be happy, if you get the mags I have it'll be a jam-o-matic. Good Luck!
--wally.
Well the only mag that didn't lose control and jam like the photo was the one I squeezed in the feed lips, but it wasn't reliable locking back on the last shot. Ran it four times, The other six mags all had the jam. The one I'd moved the feed lips closer together worked four times without failure whcih may not sound like much but I don't think it had ever emptied even once before without at least one of these jams.
The cartridge is up under the extractor, its just the round has moved up thru the feed lips and is nose up during feeding and fails to enter the chamber, catching the top of the barrel hood. This can't happen if the round says inside the feed lips until the forward motion releases it. Basic issue is that recoil forces are causing the round to move up thru the feed lips instead of being held parallel to them for feeding.
The mags are generally poorly made and can't handle the forces involved, thats the bottom line. I'll try crunching the rest of the mags and building up the follower notch with JB weld to get them locking back. If you get good mags you'lll be happy, if you get the mags I have it'll be a jam-o-matic. Good Luck!
--wally.
wally
Member
I'm starting a new thread "EAA Witness Mag Problem and Possible Solution" with photos I believe show the root of the problems I have with my Witness 10mm and what may be a solution.
--wally.
--wally.
paddling_man
Member
My EAA experience: An EAA Witness 10mm steel Wonderfinish. A gun I WANTED to love badly. Absolutely beautiful with great ergos. I spent probably as much in ammo as the original gun price, trying to get it to feed, and often extract, reliably. New mag springs, followers (yes... all red), mags, recoil springs, extractor, etc. Buy more parts. Wait. Install. $hoot more. Failure. I finally got it to feed/extract reliably, with all but a couple of brands of ammo, but traded it - I couldn't get over my initial lack of trust and dealing with EAAs smith was like talking to the two old grouches from the balcony on the Muppet Show.
Use of anything other than "factory ammo," of which Buffalo Bore and Doubletap were excluded, is voiding the warranty and the "cause of all woes" per EAA and their smith.
I know this isn't grounded in reason, but my Witness experience is the only thing that gave me pause in buying a used CZ75BD recently (that, and at 389, I think it was a little too high.) I know the only thing they have in common is the CZ style platform but bad memories are hard to shake. I do think I'll get past that in the future because the CZ frame feels so good in my hand. It won't, however, be an EAA import. I think I'll stick with a real CZ or an Armalite.
Tanfoglio is fine and my 10mm may have only been experiencing growing pains with a cartridge chambered in a gun designed for 9mm BUT I'm not going EAA ever again. All about service.
A couple of other things... if you get into the 10mm, seriously consider beginning to reload. 10mm ammo is, comparatively, very expensive. And if you do start reloading...
Get ready to start chasing that brass. My Witness could easily throw brass 25-35'. It got a bit better with a 20# and/or 22# recoil spring. Shooters in stalls 2 -3 down had to dodge my brass.
Use of anything other than "factory ammo," of which Buffalo Bore and Doubletap were excluded, is voiding the warranty and the "cause of all woes" per EAA and their smith.
I know this isn't grounded in reason, but my Witness experience is the only thing that gave me pause in buying a used CZ75BD recently (that, and at 389, I think it was a little too high.) I know the only thing they have in common is the CZ style platform but bad memories are hard to shake. I do think I'll get past that in the future because the CZ frame feels so good in my hand. It won't, however, be an EAA import. I think I'll stick with a real CZ or an Armalite.
Tanfoglio is fine and my 10mm may have only been experiencing growing pains with a cartridge chambered in a gun designed for 9mm BUT I'm not going EAA ever again. All about service.
A couple of other things... if you get into the 10mm, seriously consider beginning to reload. 10mm ammo is, comparatively, very expensive. And if you do start reloading...
Get ready to start chasing that brass. My Witness could easily throw brass 25-35'. It got a bit better with a 20# and/or 22# recoil spring. Shooters in stalls 2 -3 down had to dodge my brass. Moleary1018
Member
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2007
- Messages
- 2
Maybe this is off topic, but given the issues with this gun why would anyone want it? Is it simply going to be a range gun? I buy to carry, so if it isn't 100% reliable then it doesn't belong in my safe (who want's to worry about the second shot?).
This wasn't an editorial - I am really curious as to what the intended use is for this gun when people buy them.
This wasn't an editorial - I am really curious as to what the intended use is for this gun when people buy them.
wally
Member
I bought mine strictly as a range toy to play with the 10mm round. I'll probably someday get a .38Super upper and .357SIG barrel as these are the only other auto calibers I've no experience with.
My Witness guns have very good single action triggers and shoot accurately. No troubles with the 9mm or .45ACP, but .40S&W and 10mm have been full of troubles. The interchangable uppers lets you try other calibers for ~$200 + how much you want to spend for extra mags.
See my other thread, I may have solved the jamming issue shown in the photo I posted. No jams today! every mag I'd worked on had jammed last time out. Same ammo both times 200gr CCI Blazer. I do like the way the guns shoot!
--wally.
My Witness guns have very good single action triggers and shoot accurately. No troubles with the 9mm or .45ACP, but .40S&W and 10mm have been full of troubles. The interchangable uppers lets you try other calibers for ~$200 + how much you want to spend for extra mags.
See my other thread, I may have solved the jamming issue shown in the photo I posted. No jams today! every mag I'd worked on had jammed last time out. Same ammo both times 200gr CCI Blazer. I do like the way the guns shoot!
--wally.
atblis
Member
Hmm
I don't think SavvySurvivor is in business anymore.
The 38SA is as much fun as the 10mm. I'd almost go for the 38SA before the 10mm.
EAA service is beyond bad.
The whole Tanfoglio and EAA thing is odd. Tanfoglio is perfectly capable of making a pistol that is world class, and easily the equal of anybody. The Witness is a sound design, it is the execution that is sometimes lacking. That fact that more than a few Witnesses are lemons is troubling. Some people get a tack driver that's dead reliable, and others get... The best theory going is that EAA is mostly to blame (perfectly believable). Basically EAA tells Tanfoglio to ship whatever because they don't care. They'll just move it out and tell the customer to stick it. The problem with the theory that EAA is completely to blame fails because what kind of company would agree to knowingly ship junk with their name on it? EAA and Tanfoglio are both questionable. Nothing like a good running 10mm Witness, but how lucky do you feel today?
The brass chucking thing is easy to fix. Personally I don't like heavy recoil springs, and a 22lb spring didn't make a noticeable difference in ejection. All you have to do is cut the ejector down. They are overly long. Do it little by little with test firing in between. Test it with the lightest loads/heaviest spring you intend to use.
I don't think SavvySurvivor is in business anymore.
The 38SA is as much fun as the 10mm. I'd almost go for the 38SA before the 10mm.
EAA service is beyond bad.
The whole Tanfoglio and EAA thing is odd. Tanfoglio is perfectly capable of making a pistol that is world class, and easily the equal of anybody. The Witness is a sound design, it is the execution that is sometimes lacking. That fact that more than a few Witnesses are lemons is troubling. Some people get a tack driver that's dead reliable, and others get... The best theory going is that EAA is mostly to blame (perfectly believable). Basically EAA tells Tanfoglio to ship whatever because they don't care. They'll just move it out and tell the customer to stick it. The problem with the theory that EAA is completely to blame fails because what kind of company would agree to knowingly ship junk with their name on it? EAA and Tanfoglio are both questionable. Nothing like a good running 10mm Witness, but how lucky do you feel today?
The brass chucking thing is easy to fix. Personally I don't like heavy recoil springs, and a 22lb spring didn't make a noticeable difference in ejection. All you have to do is cut the ejector down. They are overly long. Do it little by little with test firing in between. Test it with the lightest loads/heaviest spring you intend to use.
boomer1911a1
Member
The Elite Match is a beautiful target gun. Sure it's a safe queen, but it's an aesthetically intoxicating, dead-on-accurate, full-power safe queen. I wouldn't hesitate to take it hunting for hog or whitetail, properly stoked. If it weren't for the light trigger (and maybe the size,) I'd carry it concealed on a daily basis. It's basically a vehicle for pumping up that Pride of Ownership glow you get when you handle something really special.
The standard full-size -- if you get one that runs -- makes a fearsome defensive weapon. It supplies fifteen 200-grain, .40-caliber, hollowpoint pills at 1300fps in a controllable, durable, rust-resistant package whose ergonomics parallel the classic CZ-75 and Browning HP ... all for half the price of a Glock 20.
Mine runs.
Would I love it if it jammed a lot? Hell, no. Is it worth the risk of investment to get the total package of benefits, even if it means some tinkering to tune the thing for total reliability? For me, definitely, but that's a personal call.
Every manufacturer churns out a lemon now and then... some more frequently than others. Tanfoglio's getting better all the time.
The standard full-size -- if you get one that runs -- makes a fearsome defensive weapon. It supplies fifteen 200-grain, .40-caliber, hollowpoint pills at 1300fps in a controllable, durable, rust-resistant package whose ergonomics parallel the classic CZ-75 and Browning HP ... all for half the price of a Glock 20.
Mine runs.
Would I love it if it jammed a lot? Hell, no. Is it worth the risk of investment to get the total package of benefits, even if it means some tinkering to tune the thing for total reliability? For me, definitely, but that's a personal call.
Every manufacturer churns out a lemon now and then... some more frequently than others. Tanfoglio's getting better all the time.
wally
Member
Atblis,
I've tried trimming the ejector, hasn't done much either to help keep the brass close by.
Could you please measure your ejector? So I'd get an idea if what I did was enough that I should notice it, and have some idea how far I might have to go.
I could see shooting 10mm reloads fairly often if I wasn't losing most of the brass.
Weeds are really bad this time of year. The 20lb spring feels "right" to me, but only made a small difference in where the brass landed compared to the stock spring. I didn't like the 22lb spring and it made close to zero change in brass distance compared to the 20lb.
If you are not willing to tinker, I'd suggest not buying an EAA gun unless you can shoot it first, with the possible exception of the .45 model. As to the 9mm or .40S&W, why not just get the original CZ75 for only a little more. I much prefer my Witness .45 to my CZ97 or Glock 21, both of which just don't fit me well enough to do very well with. I do beter with the CZ97 than the Glock 21. This is why I didn't try a Glock 20 for 10mm. I've not had to tinker with the Witness .45 guns I have.
So I guess the .357SIG is out. Its by far my lowest priority to try.
--wally.
LiquidTension
Member
My Elite Match 10mm has been flawless - for all 30 rounds I've fired through it. Georgia Arms was backordered on their 10mm for three months My ammo just arrived a few days ago so now I can actually start shooting it. IMO, it's worth the extra $100 to get the match - the sights, trigger, and finish are well worth the money.
My ammo just arrived a few days ago so now I can actually start shooting it. IMO, it's worth the extra $100 to get the match - the sights, trigger, and finish are well worth the money.
MachIVshooter
Member
After my aforementioned extractor fix and wolf mag springs, my compact has been 100% reliable. In fact, it is the only 10mm I own that will reliably shoot the old Norma stuff. Even my 1006 chokes on that ammo. So basically what I have is a gun that cost me $299 plus $20 worth of springs for 3 magazines and 30 minutes worth of home gunsmithing for an 11+1 round sledgehammer CCW that is far more comfortable and controllable than the only other compact 10mm, the Glock 29. And even with the extra mags, I'm still almost $200 under the sticker of a G29.
If the Basic Witness sold for $550 or $600, I might not be so positive on them. But anyone with a modicum of gun knowledge and a Dremel can make these $350 pistols run perfectly in little more time than it takes to strip and clean any other gun.
boomer1911a1
Member
MachIV:
Thanks for the post and the picture. Coupla questions:
1) When was your gun made? I wish mine had your old-school trigger guard.
2) How did you accomplish those finger-grove grips? I've heard that Hogue grips are designed for the smaller, original 9mm-frame guns and will split if installed on the larger, newer ones...
Thanks for the post and the picture. Coupla questions:
1) When was your gun made? I wish mine had your old-school trigger guard.
2) How did you accomplish those finger-grove grips? I've heard that Hogue grips are designed for the smaller, original 9mm-frame guns and will split if installed on the larger, newer ones...
paddling_man
Member
From what I've seen, the quality runs the gamut.
Some, particularly Elite Match, arrive with a perfect fit/finish and shoot nearly anything flawlessly.
Some require a bit of minor tweaking - something I've successfully done on many guns.
Some are lemons that EAA should be ashamed of and Tanfoglio should have never been sent stateside. If the support was there from EAA, like one finds with other "bargain" manufacturers (Kel-Tec, Taurus, I'm sure we can add others,) then things might be better for the end user.
Instead, with EAA all one gets is brusque attitude from the single EAA smith. There have been multiple threads over at the CZ Clone forum on everything to relating all of the crap experiences with EAA onward to petitions sent to Tanfoglio to "fire" EAA in lieu of another importer.
That's a statement I would agree with regarding, say, Kel Tec. Their warranty also supports mods and F&B. It sure wasn't the case with my Witness and, if you bring a Dremel anywhere near that Witness, the smith will go from "downright grouchy" to not even speaking with you.
Some, particularly Elite Match, arrive with a perfect fit/finish and shoot nearly anything flawlessly.
Some require a bit of minor tweaking - something I've successfully done on many guns.
Some are lemons that EAA should be ashamed of and Tanfoglio should have never been sent stateside. If the support was there from EAA, like one finds with other "bargain" manufacturers (Kel-Tec, Taurus, I'm sure we can add others,) then things might be better for the end user.
Instead, with EAA all one gets is brusque attitude from the single EAA smith. There have been multiple threads over at the CZ Clone forum on everything to relating all of the crap experiences with EAA onward to petitions sent to Tanfoglio to "fire" EAA in lieu of another importer.
That's a statement I would agree with regarding, say, Kel Tec. Their warranty also supports mods and F&B. It sure wasn't the case with my Witness and, if you bring a Dremel anywhere near that Witness, the smith will go from "downright grouchy" to not even speaking with you.
mpmarty
Member
I must be truly blessed. I've got an Elite Match 40 and a 10mm barrel for it from EAA. I have a compact all steel 10mm and a full size all steel 10mm both wonder finish guns. All three of them eat anything I feed them with all seven mags for the full size guns and the two compacts. I use 170 gr. cast bullets from Lee six cavity moulds, 135gr Nosler hps, 200gr gold dots all at max loads except for the cast bullets and have never experienced a failure of any kind. I used some wolf 20 and 22 pound springs for a while in the full size standard gun but found that the brass still left the county so I went back to the stock springs and never noticed any difference in performance. I feel the reduced rearward velocity from heavy springs is good but the increased velocity going forward places an abnormal strain on the link pin and is potentially more damaging than running light recoil springs. I finally masked off the frame around the ejector and ground off about 3/16" and now my brass stays home.
MachIVshooter
Member
2003. The recurved & checkered trigger guard was ala mig welder and bastard mills.
I used the factory grips and cut the finger groove portion out of Hogue Hand-all's, then carefully trimmed it to fit under the grips and glued it in place. Look closely and you can see. Hogue does make wrap-arounds for the full size 10mm, but not for the compact model.
wally
Member
Witness 10mm Compact slide cracked!
Less than 300 rounds, all mild factory, Remington "green box" 180 FMJ and CCI Blazer 200gr FMJ. Just when it looks like I got the mag issues solved
According to their web site their "warranty" will cost me $20 for return shipping and I have to ship it on my dime, not being a dealer, means ~$50 overnight by FedEx or UPS
I'll call, if they don't have something better to offer, like simply exchnging the uppers, (I have a .45ACP Compact upper for it too) I'll probably take it back to the dealer I got it from at the next gun show (three weeks) and see if he'll send it back for me as dealer to dealer shipping is not such a gouge!
Think carefully before buying a Witness 10mm, and how upset you'd be at $70+ to get them to even look at it if you have a problem!
--wally.
Less than 300 rounds, all mild factory, Remington "green box" 180 FMJ and CCI Blazer 200gr FMJ. Just when it looks like I got the mag issues solved
According to their web site their "warranty" will cost me $20 for return shipping and I have to ship it on my dime, not being a dealer, means ~$50 overnight by FedEx or UPS
I'll call, if they don't have something better to offer, like simply exchnging the uppers, (I have a .45ACP Compact upper for it too) I'll probably take it back to the dealer I got it from at the next gun show (three weeks) and see if he'll send it back for me as dealer to dealer shipping is not such a gouge!
Think carefully before buying a Witness 10mm, and how upset you'd be at $70+ to get them to even look at it if you have a problem!
--wally.
Last edited:
paddling_man
Member
Sorry, Wally. I was enjoying your posts of successful mods with the 10mm.
I didn't bring it up in my original post since none of the info is firsthand, but I've read of others having lots of issues with the frame and/or slide cracking on the Witness 10mm's.
I hope they make it right for you, brother.
I didn't bring it up in my original post since none of the info is firsthand, but I've read of others having lots of issues with the frame and/or slide cracking on the Witness 10mm's.
I hope they make it right for you, brother.
atblis
Member
This will be good
Keep a log of your conversations with EAA and post them here. This should be good (where's the popcorn smiley?).
Did EAA move? I thought they were in Coco Beach.
Keep a log of your conversations with EAA and post them here. This should be good (where's the popcorn smiley?).
Did EAA move? I thought they were in Coco Beach.
wally
Member
My mods were out of necessity, not a desire to tinker
So far the full size has been fine since I "squeezed" the mags and built up the followers -- ran another 75 rounds thru it with five different mags. I've looked it over carefully no signs of cracks or peaning on slide or frame. Its got at least twice the rounds thru it as the Compact did, including a few Double Tap initially, I got the Blazer thinking maybe the DT was too hot for it, but it failed equally with the stock mags.
I won't have a chance to call EAA until tomorrow.
--wally.
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