early magazine rifle?

[rusty bubbles]

I saw on tv a movie, that had as its climax,The Battle of Omdurman- in 1897-that the (British) troops were firing single shot Martini-Henry rifles'

I always thought that battle was fought using bolt action MAGAZINE rifles-one of the reasons for the resounding defeat of the Dervishes.-(not forgetting
the Maxim guns !)

My question to you historical guys is: What were the rifles used by those

redcoats in 1897?-were they the same ones they used 17 years later in 1914
in the trenches of France?

I would appreciate any information

Rusty B

 

[Jim Watson]

A little googling shows the front line British regiments armed with either Lee Metford or Lee Enfield repeaters. Native troops had a variety of older rifles, Martini Enfield, Martini Henry, and even Snider single shots.

 

[rusty bubbles]

I knew it!! I spotted the mistake in the movie- not the first time I might add!

Thanks for your input Jim- moviemakers don't give a damn about authentic weapons-but it jars on bozos like me when I see a blatant anachronism

BTW, I'm thinking of writing a pamphlet about gun calibers-"Great Bores"


Rusty B

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Thanks for your input Jim- moviemakers don't give a damn about authentic weapons-but it jars on bozos like me when I see a blatant anachronism

My pet peeve are westerns set in the 1870s-with a model 1894 Winchester in every hand.:banghead:

 

[Jim K]

Most movie Winchesters are Model 1892, not 1894. Back in the 1920's and 1930's, the movie companies and prop houses bought bunches of Model 1892 carbines when that gun was semi-obsolete and selling cheap. They also are much more rugged and durable than the Model 1873 (which were cheap at the time, also) and fired the 5-in-1 blank, a big plus for the movies.

In some later Westerns Model 94's did sub for earlier guns, but the basic "Cowboy rifle" was the 92, and it was used not only in Westerns, but in Civil War movies, sometimes made to look like a Henry with the foreend removed and the receiver painted to look like bronze.

Today, of course, movie makers who do try for authenticity have reproductions available of many old time guns. Since there is almost no actual firing in movies today, deactivated repros or dummy guns have become common, so availability of blanks is not an issue.

Jim

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I meant to say 1892. The 1894 was a typo:banghead:
Yes I have noticed the forendless M92s on episodes of Bonanza, but not painted. What I don't get is how they thought someone knowledgeable enough to know a Henry didn't have a forend would be fooled by the 1892 receiver.
Another pet peeve: Model 1874 Sharps and SAA Colts in moves set in the 1860s. Time travelers?

 

[Jim Watson]

One oddity was the 1953 Rock Hudson movie, Seminole.
Set in 1835, the troops still had revolvers, but they were open top cartridge conversions. Only 30 years out of date instead of 40.

 

[Baba Louie]

Even the great Louis L'Amour had Winchesters in his pre Civil War book Comstock Lode.

oops.

Good eye rusty

 

[Sunray]

"...were they the same ones they used 17 years later..." Nope. No. 1 Mk III's in 1914. The Lee-Metford was adopted in 1888. Martini's were still in use(Territorials). The 'Long' Lee-Enfield was adopted in 1895. Omdurman (fought to avenge Gordon) troopies would have had Long Lee's.
The Battle of Omdurman was fought on 2 September 1898. Winston's account of the battle is here. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1898churchill-omdurman.html
"...moviemakers don't give a damn about..." Usually about money and availability of props. American movie makers making movies about non-American battles are far worse. 99.99% fairy tales.
Rent 'Zulu'. Best movie ever made and very close to the actual truth. Very little BS. Except for the lack of recoil. A YouTube teaser. Crank up the sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1csr0dxalpI

 

[4v50 Gary]

Except a Lee-Enfield shows up in a few scenes of Zulu.

 

[SeekHer]

Well you have to give the movie companies some leeway as it's hard to find 200 Lee-Metfords to equip a company, or even Martini-Henry long strokes.

What usually transpires is that the firearms that will be closest to the camera will be period correct but the distant ones will at best resemble the ones used...The great John Wayne movie, The Alamo had the Mexican and Tejanos using the same rifles in shots--because they didn't have enough flinters to go around so the Brown Bess (correct for the battle) that the Mexican used were used again in the shots of the Texican militia shooting from the wall.

Battle of Omdurman - 2 September 1898, an army commanded by the British General Sir Herbert Kitchener defeated the army of Abdullah al-Taashi, the successor to the self-proclaimed Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad.

As to the Battle, the British were armed with both Lee Metfords (firing the new Woolwich bullet) and Martini Henry rifles according to The Daily Telegraph’s on scene correspondent and reported in The Times as well:

The best part of the battle was the lance charge by the Egyptian and 21st Lancers.

For excellent info try the Victorian Wars Forum

Free, E-Books on the Battle are available at onread.com with Khartoum Campaign 1898 by Bennet, Burleigh and The Desert Campaign by Massey, William Thomas et al.

 

[rusty bubbles]

A belated thank you to all you knowledgable and helpful guys-- I've been out of town and just got back.

Thanks again for your answers and info.

Rusty B