Brit Rifles From 1880 Massacre Found

[Irwin]

Really? I didn't realize that Ohio was in Britain.

Thomas Edison (light bulb) and Elisha Gray (telephone) were born in Ohio.

Dont know why I wrote light bulb think I was thinking of the steam engine and steven watt, though the phone was invented by Alexander graham bell (though i did wiki Gray as Ive never heard of him before and it seams they both submitted a patent on the same day and grey abandoned his creavet)

And scrat I believe (and was taught) the computer was invented by Charles Babbage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage (oviously not how we know it today.)

Hope I didnt offend anyone bout the light bulb thing
Irwin.

 

[Rachen]

Funny that soldiers who were the military arm of imperialists (empire building) attempting to conquer and enslave a people are considered heros that were "massacred".

Of course they will be. The government of any imperialist nation must deceive the people in order to continue on what they are doing without the fear of mass protests and potential revolutions. Why did Adolf Hitler signed on Joseph Goebbels to do the dirty propaganda work? He knows Goebbels is somebody who can make the public believe ANYTHING Hitler wants them to believe.

The propaganda arm is the most important tool of the imperialist/tyrant. This is what the British government had been doing for so long to deceive their own people, trying to cover up their hideous crimes against humanity. In the past, they focused on depriving the rights of other peoples, such as the Africans, the Indians, and the Afghanis. Today, their former opponents are getting much more powerful, such as Africa, India and China, so they turn against their own people, hence the gun bans and self defense bans.

Imperialists and other malign political extremists will never learn from their mistakes. In Chinese, there is a saying: "Guo Gai Buliao Chi Shir"

It means "Dogs will never learn to stop eating their own excrement".

 

[lacoochee]

Funny that soldiers who were the military arm of imperialists (empire building) attempting to conquer and enslave a people are considered heros that were "massacred".
Of course they will be. The government of any imperialist nation must deceive the people in order to continue on what they are doing without the fear of mass protests and potential revolutions. Why did Adolf Hitler signed on Joseph Goebbels to do the dirty propaganda work? He knows Goebbels is somebody who can make the public believe ANYTHING Hitler wants them to believe.

The propaganda arm is the most important tool of the imperialist/tyrant. This is what the British government had been doing for so long to deceive their own people, trying to cover up their hideous crimes against humanity. In the past, they focused on depriving the rights of other peoples, such as the Africans, the Indians, and the Afghanis. Today, their former opponents are getting much more powerful, such as Africa, India and China, so they turn against their own people, hence the gun bans and self defense bans.

Imperialists and other malign political extremists will never learn from their mistakes. In Chinese, there is a saying: "Guo Gai Buliao Chi Shir"

It means "Dogs will never learn to stop eating their own excrement".

Regardless of why they were their or how it came to pass that they were there, those men died well, just hope that given the same or similar circumstances that you could die as well as they.

For example, I could say the same thing about the hundreds of thousand of Union soldiers who died in the South to force us back into the Union against our will. However, I recognize many of them were here burning our homes and destroying our cities against their own will, so I am not glad of one of their deaths just saddened by them.

 

[Rachen]

Regardless of why they were their or how it came to pass that they were there, those men died well, just hope that given the same or similar circumstances that you could die as well as they.

I rather die DEFENDING my country from invaders than die being the INVADER of another country.

 

[Irwin]

Funny that soldiers who were the military arm of imperialists (empire building) attempting to conquer and enslave a people are considered heros that were "massacred".

Of course they will be. The government of any imperialist nation must deceive the people in order to continue on what they are doing without the fear of mass protests and potential revolutions. Why did Adolf Hitler signed on Joseph Goebbels to do the dirty propaganda work? He knows Goebbels is somebody who can make the public believe ANYTHING Hitler wants them to believe.

The propaganda arm is the most important tool of the imperialist/tyrant. This is what the British government had been doing for so long to deceive their own people, trying to cover up their hideous crimes against humanity. In the past, they focused on depriving the rights of other peoples, such as the Africans, the Indians, and the Afghanis. Today, their former opponents are getting much more powerful, such as Africa, India and China, so they turn against their own people, hence the gun bans and self defense bans.

Imperialists and other malign political extremists will never learn from their mistakes. In Chinese, there is a saying: "Guo Gai Buliao Chi Shir"

It means "Dogs will never learn to stop eating their own excrement". [/QUOTE]

Whats wrong with making your empire more powerfull and richer? We wernt the only Imperilists out there, everything we are told be it at school or the news is propaganda history is written by the victors, of course the British Empire has cause horrific catastrofies in law and on other countries but thats empire building for you its a dirty buisness. What we have done is nothing that America hasnt done or will do. There is allways money to be made from Empire building so it will never stop be it with the middle east or back to africa. Irwin (flipping ech it took me 20 mins to type this lol)

 

[Zoogster]

Rachen always takes it to the extreme.

I believe imperialism is a natural inevitability. It sure beats a major ruling entity with multiple tiers and classes which is the other option. Where those on the bottom are exploited so those on the top can enjoy a better quality of life. The leads to less humane rights, less freedoms, and increased legislation to limit those on the bottom.

Britain was a tiny island, naturaly as the population increased the people would have to look outside thier own borders to keep the same quality of life.

As populations grow all people will have lower qualities of life as thier limited resources are split among more people. In history they resolved that by expanding or taking more land. Of course most land for most of history was previously owned by someone.

The old way to accomplish obtaining more resources was to conquer more with military force. The way for quite some time by most intelligent conquerers has been to conquer through economical means. That is done through credit, debt and trade manipulations that favor those needing the resources.
A big part of why the target on 9/11 included the "World Trade Center" which housed some of the most powerful financial instutitons involved.

Conflict of some sort, whether through military means or economical means is inevitable. Unless the population growth is stopped, there will always be an increasing number of people and a decreasing number of resources. Those that simply fail to aquire more will stagnate and become weaker, more vulnerable to others while having a reduced quality of life.

The superior cultures will prevail in securing more resources and prosper, but in so doing another people must have fewer of the benefits.
Unfortunately everyone cannot simply have it all, and that will become more appearant as the population increases around the world.




So those that have engaged in imperialism for the people of thier nations are not "evil". They are just far from heros.
How soldiers who by definition are willing combatants and by anybody's definition worthy targets in conflict can be victims of a "massacre" on a battlefield while engaged in imperialism and armed is beyond me.
If you are helping to conquer others and die in the process you are not a 'victim'.

 

[Cosmoline]

I swear they're gonna find Jimmy Hoffa's body over there. The most interesting things keep popping up in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

Very true. FYI the Exxon Valdez is said to be over in Pakistan now, beached on the shore for scrap. I can almost guarantee that items of clothing you have worn in your life have ended up over there. I used to have a job filling returning containers with old clothing we sold to the Pakistanis and Indians. I'm sure soldiers there have fought yahoos with vintage Tee-Shirts on.

 

[Cosmoline]

This is what the British government had been doing for so long to deceive their own people, trying to cover up their hideous crimes against humanity.

Pretty much like the Chicom running dogs have been doing with Tibet all these years, eh?

Only I've never met anyone from Hong Kong with stories of British massacres. Japanese, yes, but they generally liked the Brits. We tossed them out ourselves but Mel Gibson aside they weren't that bad as colonial masters. They gave the world rule of law and many benefits of civilization. Could you even say the same about the Chicoms? The folks who killed millions during the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward. The folks who's horribly shoddy building construction led to thousands of pointless, preventable deaths recently. I lived through a 7.9 quake. The worst that happened was stuff falling off the shelves and some roads getting cracked. No schools fell on anybody. Our government, cruddy though it is, has these things called building codes and won't let people put up commercial or public structures without being quake safe. The Chicoms, with their trillions of dollars in trade profits, could certainly afford to make things safe for schoolkids. But they're in it for themselves and don't give a wetslap about the peasants now anymore than they did in the 50's or 60's.

Seems to me you need to watch your own glass walls before you start throwing stones at these long dead soldiers of the queen.

 

[Zoogster]

Yes Cosmoline, the British were the best masters during colonial times.

Compared to pretty much every other people, even primative cultures, you were better under the British.
They had a legal system that had some basis of "fair". Though as thier conquered people gained a respect for law they were even easier to manipulate.
Most other rulers just had "thier way". If comparing the British to the rulers of the middle east, or the Chinese, Fuedal Japan, most of Europe, Russia, or even the people of Africa or the Americas there was not a better master.

You hear everyone complain of the evils commited by the British, or even American settlers in our history, but in comparison to other things in the world it was minor. We are just justifiably critical of ourselves, but we should not let that blind us to think other successful people were better.

I mean the Aztecs (obviously conquered by Spain not Brits or America) had daily human sacrifices to help the sun rise the next day where living hearts were cut out of thier victims, often captured slaves of other nearby tribes.
Some other tribes regularly ate eachother.
Perhaps we should have just coexisted?

A related fact, when pitted with conquest by Spaniards or Americans the natives of the west sided with America. They knew the lesser of the two evils.
The Spanish were much more savage.
Just like how the Germans wanted to surrender to the Americans/British rather than the Russians in world war 2 and fought lightly on the west near the end, and till the better end on the eastern front in hopes of encouraging that result (though in the end western forces stopped the pace of the advance and let the Russians have at it and take Berlin). Much of Berlin was raped and pillaged. Most captured by the Russians were killed.

You could apply the same logic to most of the world.
In the Middle East The Turks were brutal and the local rulers worse than being conquered by the British. You were far better as a British colony.
In Africa the same could be said. On and on it goes.
Nobody likes to be conquered, and then exploited for the benefit of the conquerers, but if you had to face conquest, the British were the best masters.

However some places that had limited access remained relatively free and people and did not need to be conquered by the "better" conquerer. You don't need to settle for the "better" conquerer if you can defeat them all, both foriegn and domestic. The mountain regions that are part of Afghanistan and Pakistan which is what the OP is talking about were such a place for much of thier history.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Unless one's cause is noble, dying for one's cause is ignoble, or at best, foolish and tragic.

If that's not true, then the German soldiers who invaded Czechoslovakia and France and were snuffed by resistance fighters were just as "noble."

In itself, dying in a war does not make anyone a hero. You wouldn't guess that from the way that some people talk around here. Nor does someone instantly become a martyr and a hero when he dies in a war fought on behalf of a government whose subjects speak English.

I repeat: unless the cause is in itself just, willingly dying for it is foolish.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Bart Noir]

MattV, thanks for the info and hope you can post some of those pics. I too thought "they're" fakes when I read the first post. Solution (for us Yanks)? Just carry in several dozen to the nearest "Antiques Roadshow" and let them sort out the fakes

And thanks for the lead balls, those I picked up from your Dad. I still need to buy a muzzle-stuffer to fit one of those sizes!

Stay safe.

Bart Noir

 

[AndyC]

I don't know of any soldiers who would "willingly die" - but if they know they're going to die regardless, I admire those who go out like men.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Dying like a lemming on behalf of an unjust cause while slaughtering justified defenders is not manly. At all.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Cmdr. Gravez0r]

Gentlemen...this was all VERY long ago...and it's past my bedtime. So please..let's agree and let it rest.

The Empire was an instrument of Evil.

The Afghans were justified in defending their homes.

The soldiers in question were doing their duty.

Thank you.

That is all.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

It is no man's duty to unjustly invade the land of other men. Men have a duty to God not to initiate aggression.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[VPLthrneck]

British soldiers serving in Afghanistan have recovered weapons taken from the bodies of their Victorian forebears.

Rare Martini-Henry rifles

Now British officers are finding these guns

That's pretty cool. It go to show the quality of work that was done back then by some of the manufactures.
And the Afgans, or currently the Brits, don't need a C&R

All I want to know is when can we start seeing some of these on the market? I noticed someone else remarked about the possibility of our Allies picking up 2 and only giving one to the collectors groups. Now that's smart thinking!

 

[Mr_Rogers]

It amazes me that some posters are so blind that they can't see their own arguments can be turned against them.

Anyone here remember a little fracas at the Alamo? A bunch of mercenary adventurers trying to take over part of a foreign country by force of arms. Then they are recognized as heroes after they were killed in a pointless imperialist adventure that they volunteered to take part in.

It is no man's duty to unjustly invade the land of other men. Men have a duty to God not to initiate aggression.

-Sans Authoritas

It gives "Remember the Alamo" a whole new meaning.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

First, did I ever say I supported Sam Houston and his boys? Second, were those men not welcome until the Mexican government had undergone a coup and passed into more bloody hands, whereupon they were suddenly unwelcome, though they had not harmed anyone?

Reread the incidents, and see who really initiated the aggression in Tejas.

Houston and the others fought to be left alone. The men in the U.S. government jumped on the bandwagon later for territorial aggrandizement.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Mr_Rogers]

SA

No one alive has the knowledge and wisdom to judge the actions of another man, especially as he faces death. We can assign guilt or blame. We can say that he chose a path we would not follow. But we cannot be in his mind at the critical moment. Whether that moment is dominated by religious belief, military training, the training of a mentor or pure fear we can never know.

This discussion features the British soldiers killed in Afghanistan. Now, what did the man standing on a patch of rock in what is now Afghanistan, out of ammunition and facing a hundred foes know of your philosophy? Perhaps he joined the army to escape poverty. Perhaps he believed what the recruiting sergeant said about adventure. What did he know of imperial policy or the justness of his fight? He probably would have been unable to find his location on a map. What he did know was that he had a Queen, a country, a regiment and his friends around him.

What he did know, and practiced to the end, was that he had a loyalty to his country, his regiment, and his comrades in combat. Regardless of the arguments or the opinions of other men he stood true to his beliefs and his duties as he understood them. I hope that if I ever am in the same situation I can be with such men, and be worthy of them.

If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.

Kipling
​

 

[MatthewVanitas]

MattV, thanks for the info and hope you can post some of those pics. I too thought "they're" fakes when I read the first post. Solution (for us Yanks)? Just carry in several dozen to the nearest "Antiques Roadshow" and let them sort out the fakes.

I'll be at the bazaar very soon, hoping to pick up a few pieces to mail home before I depart.

Unfortunately, I won't be bringing this at, as doing so would cause great consternation to both U.S. Customs, the Bundeswehr, and a friendly German sergeant outside the Pizza Hut on a major OEF base. I like having the Pizza Hut in the background, keeps folks from stealing the photo to "prove that the Marines have abandoned M16 and chosen the HK!!!" On my previous tour I'd actually planned to borrow some LCpls and stage some "tactical entry" pics in an old barracks building, with us using PPSh-41 and Sterling subguns, but decided that was too silly. Kinda wish I had now, with a big watermark saying "not real".

(adding FAMAS pic from today too. Just walked up to a French guy in the chowhall and said "Pardon mon ami, c'est possible un foto: moi avec le FAMAS?")

 

[Mk VII]

Joseph Swan was working on an incandescent light bulb at the same time as Edison. Nowadays they would probably sue each other, but instead they decided to join forces as 'Ediswan'.

 

[matt87]

Don't forget that we developed the Colossus computers during the war, helped by a large team of scientists from around the world. The only reason that the computer revolution didn't happen a couple decades earlier and from this side of the pond is because the British government ordered the computers and all plans thereof destroyed at the end of the war. Apparently something to do with the fact that the Engima machine was still being used by banks.

Another fine example of the British Government working in the best interests of the British People...

 

[mbt2001]

Very interesting. There's a lesson here.

Yeah, when you get beat, come back and fight behind the Americans...

Just for the record, I have always been a fan of the FAMAS.

 

[woodybrighton]

Those rifles are being sold in my town in the Lanes armoury all sort of interesting stuff unfortunately mostly chopped mosin sniper rifle for $1800 any one?
Martini rifles can be brought without a license if you want to shoot one it needs to be kept in a safe.
Met a bloke who does Victorian reenactment owns three in same condition.
One hangs on the wall
one lives in the safe to be used for blank firing only.
One he shoots that lives in the safe as well.
Who said the US had the monopoly on stupid gun laws
Copper who gave him his fire arm license said "its obsolete so basically harmless"
Actually it can shoot a great big bullet accurately out to a mile if you have the skill

 

[Poor East Texan]

Would love to have one of those rifles!

'Tis better to die on ones feet than to live on the knees.

Hope I can go out as well as those men when it's my time.