Lone_Gunman
Member
A compact 45 can't be compared to the p3AT in terms of ability to be concealed.
Effectiveness of the .380?
- Thread starter fjolnirsson
- Start date
- Status
Bobo
Member
If you haven't seen it yet this post may help a bit:
http://www.thehighroad.org./showpost.php?p=1730060&postcount=119
http://www.thehighroad.org./showpost.php?p=1730060&postcount=119
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
A .380 round isn't a lot, I can't argue that. And a P3AT is a tiny little pistol, smaller than a lot of .22/.32s. There are a lot of bigger and heavier pistols and a lot of more powerful rounds, no arguments there either.
But it does little good to compare apples and oranges.
I think a .380 is minimally acceptable as a defensive round, in circumstances where nothing larger can be carried. And a P3AT is an acceptable envelope for it when nothing larger or heavier can be managed. KelTec turns out as many tiny centerfire autopistols (that's .32 and .380) in a month as the more expensive mouseguns mentioned (Rorabaugh, NAA etc) do in a year. And they sell like hotcakes, my most recent P3AT came out of a batch of five (or was it six?) that my dealer got in on Monday- by the middle of that week they were all gone.
I really wonder how many folks who badmouth KTs have ever owned or fired one. There are two P3ATs in our family, both hardchrome first generation examples. Both have been 100% reliable out of the box with a variety of ammunition, over the course of several hundred rounds fired.
I would hate to have to depend on ANY handgun to stop someone intent on doing me harm. Yet the ability to carry a tiny, lightweight pistol chambered in a reasonably poweful cartridge for such a small envelope is nothing to be sneezed at. I carry a P3AT in a Hedley pocket holster everywhere it is legal to do so. Sometimes I carry something more powerful as well, but the P3AT is an 'any pocket, any time' gun.
lpl/nc
But it does little good to compare apples and oranges.
I think a .380 is minimally acceptable as a defensive round, in circumstances where nothing larger can be carried. And a P3AT is an acceptable envelope for it when nothing larger or heavier can be managed. KelTec turns out as many tiny centerfire autopistols (that's .32 and .380) in a month as the more expensive mouseguns mentioned (Rorabaugh, NAA etc) do in a year. And they sell like hotcakes, my most recent P3AT came out of a batch of five (or was it six?) that my dealer got in on Monday- by the middle of that week they were all gone.
I really wonder how many folks who badmouth KTs have ever owned or fired one. There are two P3ATs in our family, both hardchrome first generation examples. Both have been 100% reliable out of the box with a variety of ammunition, over the course of several hundred rounds fired.
I would hate to have to depend on ANY handgun to stop someone intent on doing me harm. Yet the ability to carry a tiny, lightweight pistol chambered in a reasonably poweful cartridge for such a small envelope is nothing to be sneezed at. I carry a P3AT in a Hedley pocket holster everywhere it is legal to do so. Sometimes I carry something more powerful as well, but the P3AT is an 'any pocket, any time' gun.
lpl/nc
I recently bought a Kel-Tec p3-at .380 and have put about 120 rounds through it. winchester winclean was the first, and it jammed frequently. Then i got some remington hollowpoints, and they are better but a jam happens about 1 out of 15-20 shots, sometimes more often. I lubricated it well too. Its a beautiful little weapon, and adequately accurate but so far unreliable.
I have had my KT3AT self destruct several times and it has gone back to the factory twice. I had to file down the end of the feed ramp with a flat file to get the thing to work right. It now works OK. It is very important to keep it clean. Before you carry it clean it and lightly oil it. Never fire it in practice and then carry it without a good cleaning everytime.
The round I carry is Winchester white box 95 grain FMJ Semi Wadcutter. I get an average velocity of 847 FPS.
FMJ RN 95 grain rounds from Remington UMC average 846 FPS and Federal American Eagles are a little bit faster at 867 FPS.
FMJ RN 92 grain from Seller and Bellot are lower at 812 FPS.
Speer Gold Dot 90 grain hollow points average 898 FPS.
Remington Golden Saber 102 grain Hollow Points average 800 FPS.
Do not use Russian Sapsan brand 92 grain FMJ. It only averaged 694 FPS and did not fully cycle the slide.
Santa Barbara 87 grain truncated FMJ (has a non expanding blunt lead tip) are the fastest averaging 917 FPS but with a very wide spread with some rounds at 1000 FPS with marked recoil. A plastic piece in my trigger mechanism snaped after firing about 10 rounds of Santa Barbara ammo.
The round I carry is Winchester white box 95 grain FMJ Semi Wadcutter. I get an average velocity of 847 FPS.
FMJ RN 95 grain rounds from Remington UMC average 846 FPS and Federal American Eagles are a little bit faster at 867 FPS.
FMJ RN 92 grain from Seller and Bellot are lower at 812 FPS.
Speer Gold Dot 90 grain hollow points average 898 FPS.
Remington Golden Saber 102 grain Hollow Points average 800 FPS.
Do not use Russian Sapsan brand 92 grain FMJ. It only averaged 694 FPS and did not fully cycle the slide.
Santa Barbara 87 grain truncated FMJ (has a non expanding blunt lead tip) are the fastest averaging 917 FPS but with a very wide spread with some rounds at 1000 FPS with marked recoil. A plastic piece in my trigger mechanism snaped after firing about 10 rounds of Santa Barbara ammo.
DHart
Member
!
Never had and probably never will have a Kel-Tec. But I can say that regardless of the pistol brand or model, I consider .380 sub-par as a caliber for defense. I do have a Kahr PM-9 and for it's size, weight, and seven rounds of 9mm +P, I consider it to be the smallest, lightest self defense pistol I would consider. It would certainly seem that for walking from work to the parking lot in a rural area of Oregon, you would be hard pressed to EVER have a need for a self-defense handgun AT ALL! And if you did have such a need, a little 9mm like the PM-9 would be much more effective and comforting to have than a .380.
Personally, I consider 9mm or .38 spl. +P to be the bare minimum caliber for defense. And there are reliable, quality guns of small enough size and weight in those calibers to meet pretty much any circumstance.
As far as # of rounds before jamming is concerned, I too would require at least 150-200 rounds of trouble free use before expectation of a jam before considering carrying the gun with expectations to run flawlessly for just one or two magazines in a gunfight.
Never had and probably never will have a Kel-Tec. But I can say that regardless of the pistol brand or model, I consider .380 sub-par as a caliber for defense. I do have a Kahr PM-9 and for it's size, weight, and seven rounds of 9mm +P, I consider it to be the smallest, lightest self defense pistol I would consider. It would certainly seem that for walking from work to the parking lot in a rural area of Oregon, you would be hard pressed to EVER have a need for a self-defense handgun AT ALL! And if you did have such a need, a little 9mm like the PM-9 would be much more effective and comforting to have than a .380.
Personally, I consider 9mm or .38 spl. +P to be the bare minimum caliber for defense. And there are reliable, quality guns of small enough size and weight in those calibers to meet pretty much any circumstance.
As far as # of rounds before jamming is concerned, I too would require at least 150-200 rounds of trouble free use before expectation of a jam before considering carrying the gun with expectations to run flawlessly for just one or two magazines in a gunfight.
dogngun
Member
I have a KelTec P32, have fired it at the range several times, have never had any problem with it.Mine is carried constantly,by itself in a pocket, has been dropped, bumped, dirty and wet, carried with mags loaded for 2 months, (MecGar mags) and still no problems.
It's not a joy to shoot, and it's no target pistol, but it's a great design that works, and the company is very good with customer support. ( I hear - I never had to use it.)
I carry this gun when I am unarmed, and as a backup to my Ruger .357 revolver.
Mark
It's not a joy to shoot, and it's no target pistol, but it's a great design that works, and the company is very good with customer support. ( I hear - I never had to use it.)
I carry this gun when I am unarmed, and as a backup to my Ruger .357 revolver.
Mark
I stay away from FMJ target ammo (for carry) since having a round come apart in a magazine. Good FMJ is hard to find on the shelf, so I ordered several boxes of Remington Express FMJ from Cheaperthandirt. That's the stuff in the green and yellow boxes.
duckslayer
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2004
- Messages
- 497
I also have shot ~200 rounds thru my P3AT without a problem of any sort. The only thing I dislike about it is that the ejected brass tends to hit me in the forehead, but it sure is handy and small.
TwoGun
Member
If you are restricted to a .380, use Cor-Bon ammo if it will feed reliably. It pumps up the .380 to about the equilivent of the .38 Special/9MM. It will be somewhat less plesant to shoot but not much. Cor-Bon obtains higher velocities by maintaining peak pressure over a longer duration rather than by having higher peak pressures. So there is a bit more recoil but not that much.
Give them a try if you go the .380 route.
Give them a try if you go the .380 route.
Wilson 17&26
Member
Call Kel-Tec 1-800-515-9983 and ask for the service department. Explain the problem and ask them to send you a couple of different styles of Ejectors (part #115). Some of my P-3ATs prefer different shapes, which change the angle the brass is thrown. These should be sent free.
From what I've seen of P3ATs, I wouldn't recommend one. The instance that springs to mind is a woman next to me at the range a bunch of weeks ago. She was doing good with some kind of .22 and a Ruger GP-100 (single action only); about 1-2" groups at 7 yards.
Then she pulled out her P3AT. Tried to chamber the first round, and it wouldn't go. Took a few tries to finally get it to load. *pop*, and it jammed, the second round was sticking partially out of the ejection port, primer-end up. Looked like it had nosedived into the feed-ramp, but still had enough upward velocity from the mag springs that the back was higher than the front. That happened 4 times in 2 mags. It wasn't limp-wristing at all, her wrists never moved. 33% failure rate, yeah, that sounds great.
Accuracy was poopy at best. Despite her taking about 30 seconds to pull the trigger for each shot, and the look of intense concentration on her face (and the fact that she had been doing good groups before), half her shots were off the paper.
Personally, I'd recommend an NAA Guardian, since like everyone's said, a compact .380 is basically a contact range only proposition. And the NAA has huge advantages over the Kel-Tec there.
It's blowback, with a barrel that's fixed to the frame (indeed, the barrel and frame are a single piece of metal), barely any of the slide is flush with the muzzle, the recoil spring is pretty stiff, and there's no disconnector (it's not a safety hazard at all, though, since the hammer is physically unable to strike the firing pin if the slide is retracted an unsafe distance), making it pretty close to impossible to make the gun go out of battery by jamming it into an adversary's body. In contrast, Kel-Tecs use a Browning locking-lug short-recoil action, which is a lot easier to move out of battery, since the barrel can move back with the slide.
An NAA Guardian is also a heckuvalot heavier than a Kel-Tec, so it makes a better bludgeon when empty.
And it's all-stainless, so it's less likely to rust when left in an evidence vault for days/weeks/months/years while covered in blood.
Then she pulled out her P3AT. Tried to chamber the first round, and it wouldn't go. Took a few tries to finally get it to load. *pop*, and it jammed, the second round was sticking partially out of the ejection port, primer-end up. Looked like it had nosedived into the feed-ramp, but still had enough upward velocity from the mag springs that the back was higher than the front. That happened 4 times in 2 mags. It wasn't limp-wristing at all, her wrists never moved. 33% failure rate, yeah, that sounds great.
Accuracy was poopy at best. Despite her taking about 30 seconds to pull the trigger for each shot, and the look of intense concentration on her face (and the fact that she had been doing good groups before), half her shots were off the paper.
Personally, I'd recommend an NAA Guardian, since like everyone's said, a compact .380 is basically a contact range only proposition. And the NAA has huge advantages over the Kel-Tec there.
It's blowback, with a barrel that's fixed to the frame (indeed, the barrel and frame are a single piece of metal), barely any of the slide is flush with the muzzle, the recoil spring is pretty stiff, and there's no disconnector (it's not a safety hazard at all, though, since the hammer is physically unable to strike the firing pin if the slide is retracted an unsafe distance), making it pretty close to impossible to make the gun go out of battery by jamming it into an adversary's body. In contrast, Kel-Tecs use a Browning locking-lug short-recoil action, which is a lot easier to move out of battery, since the barrel can move back with the slide.
An NAA Guardian is also a heckuvalot heavier than a Kel-Tec, so it makes a better bludgeon when empty.
And it's all-stainless, so it's less likely to rust when left in an evidence vault for days/weeks/months/years while covered in blood. 
MachIVshooter
Member
With the P3 costing a mere $250, you just write it off at this point. A small price to pay for your life. besides, that only about 1/2 what the average annual hospital deductible is, and doctors cause as many problems as they fix in my experience.
The highest average muzzle energy I have gotten with my P3 was 208 FPE (90 gr. gold dots @ 1019 FPS). Kinda hard on the gun, but for the few rounds I fired to make sure it cycled and the couple I hope I never have to fire at anyone, these numbers are more confidence inspiring than most .380 loads from 2.5" tubes.
rick newland
Member
Wild Bill used a .36 and he never had problems with it even though it was about the same power if not weaker than a 380. Of course Bill knew how to place those bullets for the best results.
For deep cover or even as a back up I prefer my Colt Pony, it very accurate never failed to go bang and fits in my front pocket.
You should consider when carrying a 380, what the conditions are while carrying. If you are in a very cold area and everybody is wearing heavy jackets this is not the load to carry. (besides bulky cloths makes it easy to carry a .45.) But if your in a warm weather state it will do the job. I do think bigger is better though.
You should consider when carrying a 380, what the conditions are while carrying. If you are in a very cold area and everybody is wearing heavy jackets this is not the load to carry. (besides bulky cloths makes it easy to carry a .45.) But if your in a warm weather state it will do the job. I do think bigger is better though.
Those last two were just jokes. The main reason I didn't get a P3AT are the terrible reliability I've witnessed (sure, some people have had good luck, but I am a lemon magnet), and the fact that the Guardian is pretty hard to take out of battery.
Felonious Monk
Member
+1
It's not a gun you can buy, pull out of the box and expect it to be perfect, for better or worse. If that is what you require, buy a Glock.
A Kel-Tec pocket gun is a wonderful gun for someone who wants to learn the process of fine tuning an inexpensive gun into something as good or better than other plastic carry weapons, at a fraction of the dollar cost. The added cost comes in the form of the opportunity (benefit, in my mind) to learn to make minor adjustments and modifications to tune the gun.
Some folks want to drive a car off the lot with all the bells and whistles in place. Others pull a Monster Garage job on them, totally modifying everything they can change, and adding aftermarket doodads to make it "their car".
The Kel-Tec pistols serve as an excellent platform to learn some basic home 'smithing. It was, for me, a great first gun that I didn't feel bad if I gouged too deep with a Dremel while attempting something, knowing how amazing KT's service is, they would usually send a replacement part and a spare or two, along with several other 'goodies' (extra mags, etc) gratis.
No, they're not for you if you want it out of the box "like butter". If you want to learn some DIY with the help of strong support from other owners at KTOG and/or KTRange, potentially making it as good or better than the NAA, Seecamp, or anything else comparable, then it remains a gun that you can personalize, tune for total reliability, and still have hundreds of dollars left over for ammo or another gun or whatever else floats your boat.
DaleJunior
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Messages
- 39
Question #1: Can you load and fire FMJ out of the Seecamp .380? How about the Guardian .380?
Question #2: Can anyone reference an internet link that demonstrates .380 ACP FMJ performs significantly better in scientific gel tests than .32 ACP FMJ?
Thank you for your direct answers to these questions.
Question #2: Can anyone reference an internet link that demonstrates .380 ACP FMJ performs significantly better in scientific gel tests than .32 ACP FMJ?
Thank you for your direct answers to these questions.
Car Knocker
Member
Not true.
Gordon
Member
This Sunday, when getting ready to go to church then an afternoon of canoeing at a mountain lake I had a choice:
FEG RK-59 9mm Mak 19oz
Colt Cobra .38spl 16 oz.
Colt Agent .38spl 15 oz
S&W 296 .44spl 18oz.
Colt Officers LW .45 26oz
Glock 27 .40 23 oz.
Browning Baby .25 10oz.
OR
A Remington 51 .380 with Corbon ammo in a Roy Baker Original Pancake holster
Guess which one I took along?
FEG RK-59 9mm Mak 19oz
Colt Cobra .38spl 16 oz.
Colt Agent .38spl 15 oz
S&W 296 .44spl 18oz.
Colt Officers LW .45 26oz
Glock 27 .40 23 oz.
Browning Baby .25 10oz.
OR
A Remington 51 .380 with Corbon ammo in a Roy Baker Original Pancake holster
Guess which one I took along?
1. No, yes. Seecamps have extremely short magazines, which will accomodate only some brands of JHP. Guardians will eat anything.
2. No links, but it should be a no-brainer. .32 ACP is 12% smaller in diameter and 23% smaller in area than .380, to begin with. .32 is only available in round FMJ or severely underpenetrating JHPs, while .380 has several brands of flat-nosed FMJ available, and 2 JHPs which almost penetrate adequately (Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot, both of which penetrate to ~11").
Bobo
Member
DaleJunior,
http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm
This site has a lot of ballistics stuff for mouseguns and may answer your question:
http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked