With 9mms like PM9, PF9, and 709, what's the point of .380s?

[saturno_v]

An honest question - are the Kel-tec guns even rated for +P?
Must be a little more durable than I supposed.
How many rounds can they tolerate?

Yes they are +P rated, personally confirmed by one of their tech rep, and they have lifetime warranty coverage.

I have few hundreds rounds through it (+P and regular) with zero issues.

I know of several people that went through thousands of rounds with not a single problem.

However it's not a range pistol designed to fire continuosly ungodly amount of ammo in one session, first becauser it may be uncomfortable, second because, even if extremely well designed, I suspect they are, obviously, not as durable as a full size pistol given the size and the weight.

They are emergency hanguns, just practice with them reasonably at the range to mantain your proficiency....if you want to have hours of shooting fun, get something else.

 

[Girodin]

How much do you pay for an LCP?? Fifty bucks?? The PF-9 "street price" is around $260-280 around here (Western WA)....so I would not say "hundreds of dollars"

Re-read my post. The pronoun "it" is CLEARLY referring to the PM9. As I stated the PF9 is not a true pocket pistol. The 709 is not either. The PM9 is but it is the one which is hundreds of dollars more. Don't be in such a hurry to get in a huff, that you argue over something that wasn't said.

 

[saturno_v]

Girodin

I do not understand why you do not consider the PF-9 to be a pocket pistol while the PM9 is.....what size difference do you see??

 

[jon_in_wv]

a +P 9mm round will not be stopped by layers of clothing and it will expand more reliably....

Why do people perpetuate the myth that a 380 will just bounce off clothing? Please tell me what people are wearing in your part of the country that it will stop 380s. The fact is a lot of 380 rounds are tested with the "4 layer of denim" protocol. I haven't heard of ONE instance where the 380 didn't penetrate the denim.

The 9mm +p will be more powerful and will expand more reliably but it doesn't come in a weapon the size of an LCP. (With the exception of perhaps the rohrbrough?) The 380 is much more controllable in small weapons that a round like the 9mm.

 

[saturno_v]

Why do people perpetuate the myth that a 380 will just bounce off clothing?

Did I said that the 380 will bounce off?? I did talk about adequate penetration in some circumstances

Sorry but against 6'5" gym-bound 280 lb guy dressed for a midwest winter I trust more a +P 9mm than a 380....

I have no problem whatsoever to control my P-11 when firing.

If a pocket 9mm is too much gun for you, get the 380, in my case I have no issues with my P-11 and it fits my pockets just fine.

 

[-v-]

.380 and .32's have moved to the realm of key-chain guns. Seriously, some of these guns are small enough that you could loop them onto a key-chain and not really notice. Due to the higher pressure the 9mm will always require a larger weapon (and more robust locking mechanism) than the lower pressure .32 and .380.

 

[LightningMan]

I have several of what you have listed; A Kel-Tec .380, A Ruger LCP, & A Kahr PM9. I will tell you, (at least for me) its harder to conceal my PM9 than the others, although this time of year it's not with the extra clothing, but summertime it is. When the next smaller 9mm than a Kahr PM9 comes out (excluding the Rohrbaugh-9) I will be getting one. LM
Which is this as I have told my local gun shop owner to get one as they become available.
http://pistolbuyersguide.com/Articles.php?action=detail&g=content1246208096

 

[jon_in_wv]

Did I said that the 380 will bounce off?? I did talk about adequate penetration in some circumstances

Its hard to be selective about your memory when it is in writing. You said that 380 will be STOPPED by layers of clothing or more accurately that 9mm WON'T BE making the clear implication that 380 WILL. I should not have said "bounces off". My mistake. You can set your mistake right by citing the source of the information you have that 380 rounds are stopped by clothing. If you meant something about penetration depth than you should have said that instead.

Also, comparing an LCP to a Keltec P-11 is argumentative and comparing apples to oranges and it proves nothing. The P-11 is much larger than the LCP. No one is arguing that the small LCP or P3AT are as capable as the larger firearms. If you took to the time to read my posts instead of trying to incite arguement you would see I have said as much.

Also, you act like you know something we don't. The P-11 was one of my first carry guns and I'm very familiar with how it handles.

 

[Girodin]

Girodin

I do not understand why you do not consider the PF-9 to be a pocket pistol while the PM9 is.....what size difference do you see??

I say it because I have put both in my pockets and the PM9 is the only one that fits well and can be drawn in a reasonable manner/time from a braod range of pant pockets. I say it because the PF-9 is longer by roughly half an inch and is nearly that much taller as well. The Pf-9 is roughly the same size as the Kahr P9 not the PM9. Now some will say that is not a big difference but I assure in some pockets it makes all the difference in the world when it comes to both riding concealed and importanting being able to draw the gun.

If you honestly cannot see a difference (or feel it) buy a set of calipers. There is a significant difference in size. The PM9 is the maximum size of what I would consider to be a pocket.

I have some pants that have pockets that could accommodate a Glock 26 that doesn't make the G26 a pocket gun.

If all you where is cargo pants then a the kel tec or the taurus will ride fine but so will a PM40, a p45, a G26 or other guns that are vastly better weapons than PF9 in my hands.

 

[saturno_v]

Girodin

I carry my P-11 in a suit and nobody ever figured out I had a pistol on me....

And by the way, the PF-9 is slimmer and lighter than the PM9.

 

[Girodin]

An honest question - are the Kel-tec guns even rated for +P?

One round of +P ammo wont blow up a PF9 or a P11 but they will not as per Kel Tec hold up to repeated use of such ammo (and who would want to train with on occasion or shoot a substantial amount of their carry ammo through their carry gun?)

However it's not a range pistol designed to fire continuosly ungodly amount of ammo in one session, first becauser it may be uncomfortable, second because, even if extremely well designed, I suspect they are, obviously, not as durable as a full size pistol given the size and the weight.

And this is what, if nothing else, precludes them from being a tool for serious users. If one is serious in anyway about self defense they will be shooting very high round counts through their carry gun. He or she will be doing pistol courses with high round counts and shooting the gun in demanding training sessions. He or she will not be shooting it a limited amount to "stay proficient" which of course implies that proficiency was gained with it in the first place, which calls for the above mentioned demanding training. I don't want anything to do with a gun that is not built to hold up to that. If others are OK with that fine. If a gun is to uncomfortable to shoot enough to really train with then it ought to be passed by.

If you are not training that way with your carry gun bickering over .380 vs. 9mm is just silly as that is a much less significant factor to surviving a situation that mandates use of your firearm. I'll stake my life on a 380 I can/have run hard over a 9mm not designed to hold up to such use and which consequently hasn't seen it any day. I expect even my back up guns to be able to be run hard during training. If of course you do not understand the import of training or plan to engage in it then stuff what ever makes you happy in your pocket because it is such a secondary point it is not worth discussing.


I own/have owned various guns made by kel tec. I like them for what they are but there is no doubt that their quality is notably lower than my other guns. Kel tec makes a gun that meets a price point, but it is not to hard to tell why they meet that price point either.

The Kahr is rated to +P BTW.

 

[Girodin]

And by the way, the PF-9 is slimmer and lighter than the PM9

I'm well aware note I said it was longer and taller not heavier or wider. Longer and taller are what, for size considerations at least, preclude it from my pocket.

When I wear suits I don't need a pocket gun. That said many of my suits are cut and tailored such that a smaller gun (for pocket carry) would still fit them much better than anything approaching the size of a P11. With that thought I'll remind you the question of the OP was not why does Saturno not want to carry a .380 but why do some people still continue to.

In the vein of the OP I'll offer one more reason. Many people view a pocket gun as a BUG and thus having the smallest lightest easiest to carry gun out ranks pressing something larger into that role since they have a primary weapon that will handily outperform the so called pocketable 9s.

 

[jon_in_wv]

And most so called pocketable 9s just AREN'T. My hands are pretty meaty and when you add the girth of the handle of any of the small nines I just can't get my hand out of my pocket. That leaves a snubby or a small 380. I prefer the 380. Calling a P-11 or a Pf-9 a pocket gun is a stretch for all but very large pockets.

 

[mesinge2]

Warning Caliber war underway.

Saw this comming!

 

[NinjaFeint]

Warning Caliber war underway.

Saw this comming!

Just waiting for the person who is going to say "Anything less than a .45 is no good for self-defense" to show up.

 

[mesinge2]

Just waiting for the person who is going to say "Anything less than a .45 is no good for self-defense" to show up

I personally carry either a 357 or a 45 but the truth is that shot placement is the key to self-defense. A well placed 32 or 380 will do the trick, practice makes perfect (its fun too).

 

[saturno_v]

One round of +P ammo wont blow up a PF9 or a P11 but they will not as per Kel Tec hold up to repeated use of such ammo (and who would want to train with on occasion or shoot a substantial amount of their carry ammo through their carry gun?)

Kel Tec approves "judicious" use of +P ammo, has been confirmed over and over..that does not means thousands and thousands of them...

And this is what, if nothing else, precludes them from being a tool for serious users.

I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense.

Any ultra small super light 9mm, even the Kahr or any other brand, are not as durable as a, let's say a full size Beretta M9.

That doesn't means they fall apart after few hundred rounds....actually they do not fall apart at all but, let's say, after 10.000 rounds your pistol probably will get seriously loose and probably not longer fit for use...what this has to do with not trusting that pistol, if it is in good shape, in hairy situations?? If your pocket 9mm handgun has only few thousands rounds on it it will be as reliable as new. One LEO I know clocked over 5000 pills (many +P boxes) with no problems at all in his P-11 and still counting.

You will have plenty warning and visible signs that it's time for a new pistol...they are not going to catastrophically break apart.

Again these handguns are not intended for hours and hours of constant range use, they are not designed for that, they serve another purpose and they are not fun either to shoot continuosly.

Do you think is any different with, let's say, a lightweight snubnose S&W 357 revolver?? Do you think it can go through full house 357 rounds as long as a Colt Python??

Let's get real....

 

[atblis]

New Caliber War yeah This one's an exciting one.
380 v. 9mm

 

[CamaroLovr]

The first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun. i'd rather have a little pocket .380 that i grabbed and slid into my pocket on the way out to grab a pack of smokes than my S&W 5906 on the nightstand at home. Of course, if i had my way i would carry a G20 or an Delta Elite in a open shoulder holster but thats just not possible. Even the mouse guns have their place.

 

[CornCod]

On a strictly tactical level, the new breed of small 9mm's does steal a lot of the thunder from the medium-frame .380's. Pistols like the Beretta Cheetah, Baretta 70, Sig P232 and even the Bersa Thunder .380 have stylish, classic lines. I think they are worth carrying, even if they are ever so slightly inferior to the sub-compact nines caliber-wise.

 

[Girodin]

Kel Tec approves "judicious" use of +P ammo, has been confirmed over and over..that does not means thousands and thousands of them...

that is an interesting point here is what Kel Tec claims:

"the extraction system are adapted from the P-3AT. Just like the P-11, the PF-9 will accept +P ammunition, however, not with continuous use."

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/pf9.htm Here is the reference which probably should carry slightly more weight than just making an unverified assertion.

I would trust Kel Tec's official material over somebody who purportedly heard from a kel tec insider. If the gun could hold up to +p, what motivation would they have to not advertise that fact? I'm not sure why you feel the need to make things up but it is clear that the gun is not intended to be shot regularly with +p ammo. Guns are

BTW the most common problem I have seen with them is broken extractors. Google will turn up lots of reports of problems.

As durable as a full size is not the same as being up to regularly hard use (something you claimed and reasserted the PF9 was not up to). A gun that cannot that you don't want to do a two day training course with for whatever reason makes a poor choice for a carry gun, unless you don't plan to do any such training with it. As I said if that is the

You will have plenty warning and visible signs that it's time for a new pistol.

Google Kel Tec PF-9 broke and you will find plenty of reports of them breaking with very low round counts, read some of those reports and tell me those people had plenty of warning. Extractors and firing pins are often reported to break without plenty of warning. I have seen mag followers break as well. Not to mention the factory mag springs often need replacing right from the get go. All manufactures have guns that break or do not work right from the factory but some, such as kel tec seem to have a whole lot more and thus have a whole web pages dedicated to teaching people how to get them to run right.

Like I said I own kel tecs. They are not as well built as other guns, that is a big part of why they cost much less. What other gun is bough with the knowledge it might need a fluff and buff just to reliable run a mag.

Do you think is any different with, let's say, a lightweight snubnose S&W 357 revolver?? Do you think it can go through full house 357 rounds as long as a Colt Python??

I don't know but I have not seen anywhere close to the number of broken S&Ws as I have PF-9s. That said I don't think you are even framing the question correctly the more analogous question is which would hold up better a scandium frame Smith or some cheap-o off brand snub nose?

"Lets get real" is right. You are making up facts that directly contradict what the manufacture claims to try and prove your point. You haven't put your kel tec, your primary carry gun, through hard (read suitable) training. You haven't run a pistol course with it or done equivalent training. You don't think it is up to such use (neither to other people I don't think I've ever seen one run through such a class). You think pulling to out at the range and shooting it a bit is sufficient training for a carry gun. I think we are worlds apart on our core philosophies of defensive guns. I'm not sure there is anything for me to discuss with you. Particularly considering this only a tangent to why people still carry .380s. You think the Pf9 is highly reliable and robust some people don't. You think it is a "pocket gun" most people don't.

As an aside aren't you the guy that thinks .270 is good for lions because shot placement is king but now .380 is to far behind 9mm coming out of a short barrel to even be a viable option http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=369233&highlight=lion+270

I honestly think you just like to argue without knowing what you are talking about.

 

[carbineguy]

strikefire you said that the ruger lcp is basically the kel-tec p3at you are miserably mistaking are they similar in looks yes are they the same not in the least the ruger has a way smoother operation and less recoil the p3at jams at least 1/2 clips u shoot out of it u will get a jam the kel tec is a overpriced paperweight there are gonna be people that reply to my post and say well your just biased and whatnot well i own both and i wouldnt sell my ruger for 1000 dollars even were i would trade my kel tec for a box of 380 hollow points for my lcp

 

[saturno_v]

Girodin let's see if you can understand what I wrote...

"the extraction system are adapted from the P-3AT. Just like the P-11, the PF-9 will accept +P ammunition, however, not with continuous use."

That is exactly what the "judicious" use means....comprende?? :banghead:

Here is the reference which probably should carry slightly more weight than just making an unverified assertion.

I did not heard that from the cousin of the brother of the friend of someone that did talk to a KT guy..I did talk with a Kel Tec technician myself before using +P ammo in my pistol...again, comprende?? :banghead:

I do not own a PF-9, I own a P-11 as I wrote several times

The PF-9 did have initial reliability problems at the first release, as far as I know they have been resolved by Kel-Tec

A gun that cannot that you don't want to do a two day training course with for whatever reason makes a poor choice for a carry gun, unless you don't plan to do any such training with it. As I said if that is the

Who said that a P-11 or a PF-9 cannot withstand a training course?? You are mixing apples with oranges here....How many round do you fire in a two day course?? 10.000??? Again problems with communication here I see...try again...

They are not as well built as other guns, that is a big part of why they cost much less. What other gun is bough with the knowledge it might need a fluff and buff just to reliable run a mag.

Nonsense (look who doesn't know what he is talking about...)

They may be not finished as well as the overpriced Kahrs (I see them jamming a lot) but they are designed very well...the P-11 is a real little mechanical jewel, designed by ex-Bofors engineer George Kelgren...if you are familiar a little bit about firearms design you should know this guy knows the trade very well...

That said I don't think you are even framing the question correctly the more analogous question is which would hold up better a scandium frame Smith or some cheap-o off brand snub nose?

Ohh now I get it...you go by brand name.....sorry but that is a clear sign of shallow knowledge....do your own homework and do not rely on names...I would not touch a Kimber with a 20 feet pole...again a snubnose 357 Mag will not last as long as a long barrelled Python....but that doesn't mean you cannot get through a training course with it.

I evaluate firarms by the way they are designed, fit, ergonomics and the materials used in the construction....I do not rely on glossy brochures, ads in magazines, marketing hype or exterior finishing (the typical bait to charge very steep prices, an art the Germans, for example, master very well)

You are making up facts that directly contradict what the manufacture claims to try and prove your point.

What facts I'm making up??

You haven't put your kel tec, your primary carry gun, through hard (read suitable) training

So what you mean by "hard training"...I have to crawl in the mud for 20 miles and then shoot 500 rounds one after another with my P-11?? A PF-9 or P-11 can go through a regular SD course in spades and yes, people use them for training at my range...

You think it is a "pocket gun" most people don't.

Really?? Do you realize the absurdity of your affermation?? Again speaking of someone that doesn't know what he's talking about....Most P-11 and PF-9 are carried in pockets my friend, mine included...there are specific pocket holsters for them (for example my Uncle's Mike or the DeSantis Nemesis) :banghead::banghead:

Are these shoulder holsters?? Belt holsters?? Or ankle holsters?? Can you read the label?? :banghead::banghead::banghead:

http://www.desantisholster.com/storefrontB2CWEB/browse.do?action=refresh_browse&ctg_id=1498

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=341038

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=141332

As an aside aren't you the guy that thinks .270 is good for lions because shot placement is king

Sorry but I trust Jack O'Connor (check his book about the 270 in Africa "Classic O'Connor: 45 Worldwide Hunting Adventures") more than you..do you know where Africa is on a map??

...but now .380 is to far behind 9mm ....

Let me see if I can explain it to you...it's not that hard...really....do you realize the difference between a high SD 160 gr. rifle bullet striking a 450 lb thin-skinned animal (an hypothetical Lion) at 2700 ft/lb vs. a stubby 90 gr. handgun bullet striking a very big 260 lb individual (an hypothetical bad guy) below 200 ft/lb...do you?? :banghead:

Even a 9mm (heck even a 45 ACP) may be marginal in some circumstances...

I did not say that the 380 would bounce off a human target...I just said that in certain situations it may lack adequate penetration...yes bullelt placement is king...and the reason why I carry a P-11 is not only power but cost of ammo also....and since I have no problem at all in putting a P-11 in my pocket (and the 12+1 double stack capacity is very nice to boot) why I have to go with the smaller caliber?? I rather have ~350 ft/lb of energy in a 115-124 gr. bullet than 200 ft/lb or less in a 90 gr. pill. If Kel Tec still made the P-40 (chambered in .40 S&W) I would have got that one instead of a P-11.

30 years ago, when the super compact 9mm were not around I probably would have picked a small 32 ACP as pocket pistol...a gun is always better than no gun

If people find the mini 9mm too cumbersome for pocket carry, more power to them, they can get a .380, .32, .25 or even 22 Short..it's their problem not mine.

I'm not sure there is anything for me to discuss with you.

The feeling is reciprocal...by the way I was not talking to you in the first place...

I honestly think you just like to argue without knowing what you are talking about.

I think exactly the opposite...

 

[StrikeFire83]

Well, I guess most folks here wear skinny cowboy jeans and 70s tight rayon pants on a daily basis, because that's the only thing I can think of as to why you wouldn't be able to conceal at least a kahr pm9 sized gun. Maybe I let my ass overload my mouth a bit with the Taurus and kel-tec, because I don't own those guns.

But in jeans, slacks, kahkkis, denim shorts, board shorts...even lightweight synthetic REI shorts I've been able to pocket carry my kahr pm9 with nobody being th wiser. As I said before, just about the ONLY clothing situation I can see myself being in where I couldn't realisticly conceal the kahr would be ultra lghtweight addidas gym shorts or a bathing suit.

Oh, and I never meant to start a caliber war, shoot what you like and can shoot well. If I ever find any 380 amo again I may just shoot my p3at again.

 

[harmon rabb]

try to fit any of those guns in the pocket of a pair of jeans. then try fitting a LCP in the pocket of a pair of jeans.

argument over. lulz.

i can fit a PF-9 in the pocket of my slacks no problem, but not in jeans.