they only arrested a few of the straw purchasers........no one of any importance has been arrested.
im sure those few low level arrests were worth the 150 or so killed with F&F guns.....including 1 american.
El Chapo Had A Fast and Furious Barrett .50 Cal
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im sure those few low level arrests were worth the 150 or so killed with F&F guns.....including 1 american.
Deanimator
Member
PURELY ancillary to its REAL purpose, an indirect attack on the 2nd Amendment.
A claim was made that nobody was arrested. That claim is false.
Fast and Furious failed at its goal of tracing gun trafficking to high level cartel members just as Operation Wide Receiver failed before it. However, both documented a busy gun trafficking market where straw purchases bought guns in the USA and then sold them to cartel members
It is one thing to say these operations failed. It is another all together to say they were an evil scheme designed from the start to allow the passage of UBCs.
not really.......they had no way of tracking these guns.......they knew they had no way to track these guns......so just what the hell were they doing?
it doesnt take a rocket surgeon to see this was going to fail right from the start
i have no doubt this was all a setup to make "american gun culture" look bad...and use it as an excuse to impose more gun control.....
danez71
Member
That sounds a lot like "I didn't know he was a prohibited person, All I knew was that he was a buyer" even though I was suspecting he was really a prohibited person.
Its kind of a cop-out don't you think?
And it wouldn't be my decision either, just to be clear.
But all of that is completely irrelevant.
This all goes back to he said, which is, that he suspected enough to state factually that they were dealers (not sellers) and that he went thru with the transaction without paperwork anyways.
And this is defensible, how?
Hoorayyy THR!
Its a little sly to suddenly claim its semantics when you made the distinction of the 2 in your posts.
Clearly a cavalier attitude regarding gun laws.
Deanimator
Member
"Fast & Furious" didn't "fail" in that guns weren't traced. They were never meant to be traced in the first place, only FOUND. The routes they traveled or the hands through which they passed were NEVER of even the SLIGHTEST interest to Obama and Holder.
Where "Fast & Furious" FAILED was NOT as a false flag operation aimed at driving REGISTRATION (aka, "universal background checks"). It FAILED as a false flag operation aimed at driving a new Federal "ASSAULT WEAPON" BAN. At THAT it was a MISERABLE failure.
danez71
Member
People should have been at least fired over the lack of competence; not transferred and promoted.
Lets just say for a minute that it was all with the best intentions.
F&F lost 1400 of 2000 guns over the course of many many months if not a couple years.
Please explain the justification for it to have been continuing.
I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but with Holder not being cooperative, Holder caught lying, Holder being held in contempt (with no punishment), high level Holder subordinates being promoted rather than fired... a claim of Executive Privilege (now over turned).... the list goes on. It reads like a conspiracy novel.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
But it ISN'T the same, because knowingly selling a gun to someone who's a prohibited person (a highly defined specific thing) is a crime. If the BATFE can prove you knew or had reason to know that the buyer is a prohibited person, they can charge you with a crime.
Knowingly buying a gun from someone you think might ... somehow ... fall into the category of dealing without a license ... when even they can't know that for certain without being charged for it ... is not. If you bought a gun from someone the BATFE can prove you knew or suspected was selling a lot of guns in a way that might -- subject to their prosecutorial discretion -- earn them a charge of dealing in firearms without a license, what are they going to charge you with?
I don't even see a conspiracy or collusion charge holding any water. Got any other ideas? Maybe there is something and I'm not aware of it.
But if they aren't licensed, he COULDN'T have filled out the 4473. It was perfectly lawful for him to buy that gun from them. It was perfectly lawful for them to sell that gun to him.
The totality of their habits and actions may or may not have placed them into a category for which that charge may be applied, but not that action, and not that day.
You mean how can he defend NOT breaking the law? I surely don't know.
I certainly can't convict him, even in my own mind, for the trouble those other people might eventually bring down upon themselves by a continuing trend covering a large number of actions that I don't have any evidence of beyond gross speculation.
Yes, sireee! Where else can we really dig into these knotty questions!?
The same could be said for Operation Wide Receiver. Some in the gun community see one operation as a very poorly thought out sting by the ATF and the other as a conspiracy.
danez71
Member
Boy... you're really trying here aren't you?
I'm not disagreeing with what youre saying. I'm disagreeing with your application of it.
You're arguing based on "But if's" (But if they aren't licensed...)
I'm arguing based on what he said.
He said they were 'dealers'.
He noted difference between 'sellers' and 'dealers' in his posts.
He said he made the transaction with no paperwork.
If you want to debate "what if's", that's a different topic.
Deanimator
Member
The same could be said... it just wouldn't be true.
An effort was made to track the guns in "Wide Receiver". NO effort was made to track the guns in "Fast & Furious".
It was nothing but a political psyop first, last, and always.
danez71
Member
Not really.
Wide Receiver was not successful and shut down.
F&F was started with full knowledge of Wide Receivers failures.
Despite that, F&F was started with the same short comings and dwarfed Wide Receiver in size.
Regardless, you didn't answer my question. Why was F&F allowed to continue after losing so many guns? Particularly after knowing the failures of Wide Receiver?
Total incompetence or conspiracy?
I'm seeing this as both.
In my initial post I said dealers. Yep. They are dealing in guns. Sellers is an accurate word as well and more appropriate as to not confuse LICENSED dealers with a schmoe off the street who buys and sells guns without a license. Had I been buying guns from a known to me licensed dealer that did not file a 4473 then he would have been breaking the law. Not me. A licensed dealer can sell from his personal stock off his personal books so its still questionable whether a law was broken. As far as the difference between a licensed dealer selling a gun and an unlicensed dealer that is up to the ATF to determine and enforce.
I remember the first time I bought a gun at a gun show and didnt have to fill out anything. It was a NIB M11/9 . The guy handed it to me and I asked him if I needed to fill anything out. Nope. Heres a receipt. Kind of put me back for a bit.
Still havent broken any laws and you can keep rambling on if you like. Conversation is exciting even if its pointless babble.
The fact still remains that it is entirely possible to buy just about any gun, including a Barrett 50 cal, at a gun show without a background check in most states. Not from everyone there but from more than you think. I know some people dont like to hear that because it just sounds bad but it is still true. I think you used the word "demonize" . Not me. I think all sales should be off the books. I dont think there should be books.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Not without a 4473. I've found no exception for that requirement simply because a licensee says this is a personal firearm.
The ATF's guide for licensees says:
I know when I was a dealer I had to keep a separate set of books for personal firearms but I never sold any of my own stock . Your'e probably right.
jerkface11
Member
And the anti gun community tries to act like they were ran the same way. When in fact Wide Receiver was conducted with the knowledge and consent of the Mexican government and the ATF was putting tracking devices in the guns. Fast and Furious was kept secret from the Mexican government and they planned on tracking the guns AFTER they turned up at crime scenes. Take you spin where the low information voters are it isn't gonna work here.
Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious had one very big difference in tactics: F&F cut the Mexican police out of the loop. Considering the level of corruption in the Mexican police department and the way they intertwine with cartels that was likely a very good idea. The guns disappeared when they crossed the border even when the ATF notified Mexican officials a shipment was happening.
I don't know, only the people in charge of the operation know that. The ATF was monitoring the straw purchasers with cameras and wiretaps hoping to find out who they were connected to up the chain. How long do you watch and wait? I don't know.
However the idea made by some at the ATF was running guns into Mexico is false. The ATF was monitoring a criminal network. They watched it instead of busting the low level guys making the purchases and seizing the guns. That trade was already established before Fast and Furious and likely continues today.
A big reason the conspiracy theories fail is because Obama had no need to run guns into Mexico as a pretense for passing gun laws. F&F started in October 2009. At the time Obama had a large Democratic majority in the House and a veto-proof majority in the Senate. If he was serious about renewing the assault weapons ban or requiring universal background checks all he had to do is call up Byrd and Pelosi.
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I could have sworn that was incorrect and it is under the following circumstances. A licensed dealer can sell guns from his personal collection without completing a 4473 for the buyer. There are the typical recording provisions for the bound book but no 4473 or BG check unless the state requires it...
.
§ 27CFR478.125a Personal firearms collection.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subpart, a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is not required to comply with the provisions of § 478.102 or record on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, the sale or other disposition of a firearm maintained as part of the licensee's personal firearms collection: Provided, That
(1) The licensee has maintained the firearm as part of such collection for 1 year from the date the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm,
(2) The licensee recorded in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) the receipt of the firearm into the business inventory or other acquisition,
(3) The licensee recorded the firearm as a disposition in the bound record prescribed by § 478.125(e) when the firearm was transferred from the business inventory into the personal firearms collection or otherwise acquired as a personal firearm, and
(4) The licensee enters the sale or other disposition of the firearm from the personal firearms collection into a bound record, under the format prescribed below, identifying the firearm transferred by recording the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge, and showing the date of the sale or other disposition, the name and address of the transferee, or the name and business address of the transferee if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a drivers license). The format required for the disposition record of personal firearms is as follows:
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Aaahh. Ok. That's good to find. I've been looking.
Don't think that would work for showing up at a gun show and selling a lot of guns.
Don't think that would work for showing up at a gun show and selling a lot of guns.
Fast and Furious WAS an evil scheme to promote the passage of universal background checks.
The complete inability to trace most of the guns, and the result that it added to the turmoil in Mexico as the Cartels seized power is direct evidence the Administration didn't care about their troubles.
The intent was to kill people, claim illegal sales in the US were the problem, enact laws that would only restrict law abiding purchasers, and further the agenda to disarm Americans.
It's one thing to say that there are some leaps of faith because we don't have any "smoking gun" documents or testimony - well, gee, they've been hiding under Executive Privilege and the shredders were going full speed 24/7. It's something else entirely to say that the obvious results weren't part of a plan. There is too much coverup, stonewalling, and resignations to even try to gloss it over as just some agents getting out of hand.
The Administration got caught. Virtually none of the walkers were prosecuted. None of the agents lost their jobs. No substantial compliance to requests has yet occurred - EP covered their tracks.
This is beginning to implode now that we have a Court which has removed the privileges of cover up. It's not going away and the resulting definitive book is still being written. It's going to be nearly as long as "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and names will come out.
It was a scheme to force background checks, it killed people, and the sympathetic media isn't going to miss out on breaking the news once it has reliable sources.
The complete inability to trace most of the guns, and the result that it added to the turmoil in Mexico as the Cartels seized power is direct evidence the Administration didn't care about their troubles.
The intent was to kill people, claim illegal sales in the US were the problem, enact laws that would only restrict law abiding purchasers, and further the agenda to disarm Americans.
It's one thing to say that there are some leaps of faith because we don't have any "smoking gun" documents or testimony - well, gee, they've been hiding under Executive Privilege and the shredders were going full speed 24/7. It's something else entirely to say that the obvious results weren't part of a plan. There is too much coverup, stonewalling, and resignations to even try to gloss it over as just some agents getting out of hand.
The Administration got caught. Virtually none of the walkers were prosecuted. None of the agents lost their jobs. No substantial compliance to requests has yet occurred - EP covered their tracks.
This is beginning to implode now that we have a Court which has removed the privileges of cover up. It's not going away and the resulting definitive book is still being written. It's going to be nearly as long as "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and names will come out.
It was a scheme to force background checks, it killed people, and the sympathetic media isn't going to miss out on breaking the news once it has reliable sources.
"massive rifle that can stop a car or, as it was intended, take down a helicopter"
Fox not only continues to perpetrate this lie, but doubles down by embellishing the lie. Thanks for joining with MSNBC as an enemy of the rights of the people in this country.
Fox not only continues to perpetrate this lie, but doubles down by embellishing the lie. Thanks for joining with MSNBC as an enemy of the rights of the people in this country.
TimSr
Member
Someone should explain that to Sergeant Andrew Tahmooressi.
TimSr
Member
It comes down to this final question. It was one or the other. Even the defenders (I'm still amazed there are some) of that debacle have offered no alternative conclusions.
"take down a helicopter" The .50 was developed as an anti-air round (per Chinn). It proved useful very useful elsewhere but that cannot change the history. (admittedly it does pre-date helicopters) The gun in question is marketed as an anti-material rifle.
The statement is not friendly but other than mixing up the type of aircraft it is truthful.
The statement is not friendly but other than mixing up the type of aircraft it is truthful.
barnbwt
member
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I'd just like an explanation of exactly how F&F differed from plain old criminal smuggling, in practice. The ATF arranged the sales, directed customers to them, protected them from apprehension until they were (unknowingly, supposedly) escorted to the border, then left then to their own devices. A police sting 'stings' at some point when the evidence is incontrovertible. A sting with no sting at the end is plain and simple corruption under color of law, if not conspiracy towards organized crime. That they claim they had a grand plan or good intentions afterwards is not a defense.
Maybe not Holder or Obama if they truly weren't overseeing their subordinates as incompetent managers, but the field managers running this thing should be in prison alongside their business partners (and O & H should have been fired)
TCB
Maybe not Holder or Obama if they truly weren't overseeing their subordinates as incompetent managers, but the field managers running this thing should be in prison alongside their business partners (and O & H should have been fired)
TCB
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