Eliminating the gun show loophole

[rajb123]

Currently, there is no legal restriction on transferring a gun in a transaction between a buyer and seller who live in the same state when the seller is not aware of any reason why the buyer cannot own the gun.

Can the federal government regulate these transactions, for example, by requiring the seller to compel the buyer to complete a background check?

I thought the powers of the federal government were supposed to be limited...

 

[USAF_Vet]

Michigan closed the gun show loophole on handguns by requiring a pistol purchase permit.

Hopefully that will be going away soon.

To further answer your question... Don't give them any ideas.

 

[Romeo 33 Delta]

How's that Michigan solution workin' out? I bet there are ZERO non-compliant transfers of handguns amongst the drug dealers, eh?

 

[NavyLCDR]

The Federal government now has the power to regulate any item that they desire to, even private property, under the commerce clause of the US Constitution. In a major abuse of the commerce clause, the Supreme Court ruled in Wickard v. Filburn that the government can regulate any item that has ever remotely affected interstate commerce in any way at any time. That is how they re-enacted the 1000' school zone prohibition of firearms after the first version was declared unconstitutional.

 

[medalguy]

The next thing they are going to do is require us to eat broccoli every week. Hey it's covered by the Commerce Clause. And if it isn't, there's always an Executive Order that can be implemented.

Whatever happened to "limited federal government"?

 

[One_Jackal]

SSSSSHHHHHH!!! Bloomberg will make a law requiring New Yorkers to eat broccoli every week!!

Here in NC a permit is required to buy a pistol from anyone. What is sick is our buy permit and concealed carry laws are Jim Crowe laws passed in the 1930s.

 

[C0untZer0]

To me eliminating the gun show loop hole means not allowing non-firearms stuff into the gun shows.

Crafts
Sunglasses
Candied nuts
Bake sale stuff
Jerky
Quack Arthritis cures
Military surplus junk
WWII memorabilia
Nazi memorabilia
Flea market & rummage sale junk

Ugh...

 

[leadcounsel]

The "loophole" is only created by bad laws that require BUSINESSES that deal in guns to conduct checks.

I agree with eliminating the loophole. Let's STOP requiring background checks for businesses. That solves the loophole problem.

The "loophole" is really just allowing a private person to sell his private property to another private person. For instance, if I want to have a garage sale and sell you my coffee table, I don't have to collect sales tax, but a business needs to collect sales tax. Is that a 'tax loophole?" No. It's a person selling private property.

 

[leadaddict]

For instance, if I want to have a garage sale and sell you my coffee table, I don't have to collect sales tax, but a business needs to collect sales tax.

Unfortunately that's not true everywhere. I remember having garage sales as a kid and my parents paying tax. I looked it up and it's a city thing:
http://www.pueblo.us/DocumentCenter/Home/View/774

The state governments doregulate certain private transactions in many places. In Illinois the buyer must have a FOID card in order to completlete a transaction. You're supposed to write down their card number and keep it for 10 years! In Iowa you just have to verify they have a permit to purchase, or carry permit, to sell them a handgun.

 

[Sam1911]

Can the federal government regulate these transactions, for example, by requiring the seller to compel the buyer to complete a background check?

I thought the powers of the federal government were supposed to be limited...

As NavyLCDR points out, the "Commerce Clause" has been contorted to cover anything, anywhere, ever, so at this point if legislation was passed and signed into law saying all firearms transfers had to be through a federally licensed dealer there is no real reason to think that the SCOTUS would deny Congress the power to make such a regulation of trade.

 

[highorder]

Michigan closed the gun show loophole on handguns by requiring a pistol purchase permit.

How do you mean? When I lived in Michgan, I would always go get a permit on Friday for the weekends gun show. It was stupid, but at least it was free and only took ten minutes.

I founds some great deals on handguns on occasion.

 

[leadaddict]

How do you mean? When I lived in Michgan, I would always go get a permit on Friday for the weekends gun show. It was stupid, but at least it was free and only took ten minutes.

I assume there is a background check run when you get the permint. Now the "loophole" is closed because you've been checked and verified as a non-prohibited person.

 

[Kubrick]

They closed the gunshow loophole in Oregon some time ago. All it has done is stop private citizens from buying a table at a show and selling pieces of their collection because they aren't FFLs or have the infrastructure to perform background checks.

Deals are few and far between at gun shows these days. Mostly it's just new stuff that is overpriced trying to get the uneducated buyer to bite on a glock 19 for $600.

 

[Mr. D]

I don't even like using the word "loophole" to refer the the transfer of guns from one person to another. For one thing, this doesn't only apply to gun shows. For another, I don't think any of us would seriously wish the government to start regulating person-to-person transactions for ANY item. Calling it a "loophole" infers that it needs closing. Here in PA, individuals are allowed to buy and sell between each other almost any item they wish without a background check: toothpaste, zucchini, long guns, ammo, vehicles... except for and handguns. Because handguns are SO much more DANGEROUS than, say, an SKS or a .30-06 rifle. UGH!!!!

~D

 

[Pistol Ranch]

COuntZerO, you forgot:
T-Shirts
Knife Sharpeners
Indian Relics
Boomerangs
Slot Cars
Coins/Jewelry
Russian Dolls
Foot Relaxers
I am with you brother......

P.R.

 

[Snag]

The "loophole" is really just allowing a private person to sell his private property to another private person.

Doesn't sound like a "loophole" at all.

 

[CoRoMo]

Colorado's reaction to the Columbine shooting was to "close the loophole", but it was an impotent attempt, thankfully.

If you want to conduct a private transaction on gun show premises, you have to do the 4473/NICS thing according to state law. We don't actually use NICS here, we use the state's CBI which is horribly delaying; it could take hours to complete a BGC. So it can handily be quicker to just tell the guy to meet you elsewhere in town so that you can proceed with a completely legal FTF transaction without the silly BGC nonsense.

 

[Unistat]

Michigan closed the gun show loophole on handguns by requiring a pistol purchase permit.

Hopefully that will be going away soon.

To further answer your question... Don't give them any ideas.

To be perfectly clear, the pistol purchase permit (and the old "safety inspection, now registration) were not created in response to gun shows. They are older laws that were originally designed to keep guns out of the hands of black people.

As USAF Vet says, if some pending legislation can get passed, they will go away.

 

[alsaqr]

What is a "gunshow loophole"? Last time i checked it was legal for a law abiding citizen of the US to sell his private property.

Any person who favors closing the non-existent "gunshow loophole" should read this "gunshow loophole" bill that was proposed in the US senate. It was draconian gun control at its finest. Thankfully it failed.

http://www.gunlaws.com/McCainLieberman.htm

 

[X-Rap]

I can't think of any of these laws that they claim are intended to protect people in which it doesn't actually just increase the honest mans legal jeopardy by making what should be legal a crime. The criminal by nature won't follow laws and fear of prosecution doesn't seem to be a deterrent.
Tin foil aside it really seems that these new proposals are only intended to take more of us out of the game while the crooks in DC and on the street just take more.

 

[Sam1911]

Tin foil aside it really seems that these new proposals are only intended to take more of us out of the game while the crooks in DC and on the street just take more.

Not really. For the extreme die-hards like Sugarman and Ms. Brady, sure. But for most politicians it is nothing in the world more than a very catchy "talking point" that lets them be "for" something that sounds effectual to millions of blissy constituents out there in TV land.

 

[USAF_Vet]

To be perfectly clear, the pistol purchase permit (and the old "safety inspection, now registration) were not created in response to gun shows. They are older laws that were originally designed to keep guns out of the hands of black people.

As USAF Vet says, if some pending legislation can get passed, they will go away.

Right, but it effectively closed the loophole despite not being the intention.

The purchase permit includes a background check.


As far as one person selling private property to another person, it doesn't always work like that.
I can sell my car to someone else, but I have to file paperwork with the DMV to change registration and ownership. In Michigan, the same must be done with hand guns. Long guns can be bought and sold all day long without any paperwork.
I guess anything that has been registered in anyway with a state office needs to be reregistered after the sale of said item. The registration requirement does not stop anyone from selling their property.

 

[jon_in_wv]

The term "gunshow loophole" is a misnomer. There is no loophole when a private party is selling to another private party legally and under the already established laws. The only difference is where you are doing it. The only thing that I consider is a little iffy is when a person buys a table as an "exhibitor" then sells guns in direct competition to the dealers with their tables. Its pretty clear they are in many cases operating just like a dealer but they are doing it without a license and for profit. While you can argue the ethics of it one thing is for sure is that it doesn't help our cause at all.

 

[rajb123]

in my town the police will not allow private parties to buy/sell guns at an annual gun show and they monitor parking lots in nearby places to ensure this does not happen.

...this ocurrs despite no laws on the books to prevent private parties from doing this. ....basically I live in a police state...

 

[X-Rap]

Its pretty clear they are in many cases operating just like a dealer but they are doing it without a license and for profit. While you can argue the ethics of it one thing is for sure is that it doesn't help our cause at all.

I don't know why you would go to a gun show as an exhibitor and not sell guns, I have always thought of them as a swap meet for firearms enthusiasts. I think historically the storefront dealer stayed away but now in CO at least some dealers make a good percentage of their yearly income from background checks and since the checks are required they have taken to the shows in increasing numbers.
Saying private sales at shows hurts the cause can only be of recent history because prior to recent laws and this is only in a few states personal sales probably made up the majority of gun show sales.