Elk gun

[Wedge]

Hey Pilot, thanks man! I was being a little tongue in cheek there with really big game hunts...as in not on North America.

I think there is some great advice in this thread, most of it being that we've had a pretty much perfect North American game cartridge for around 102, going on 103 years

Have to say again that training at altitude is such a good idea too. I'm only at 550-600 feet as opposed to 6000-7000! I mean if it's good enough for our olypians to do it's good enough for me!

 

[lefteyedom]

Best real world Elk round of the lot is the 338 win mag.
Not wanting to be a snob but the very fact you are asking this question means that the BEST choice for you would be a 30.06 bolt action. This rifle with a 3X9X40 scope and a 22"-24" barrel, load up either 165 or 180 grain, zero in 4" high at 100 yards will do the job nicely. Practise till you can hit a 2 liter pop bottle out to 300 yards, not off of a bench but as you would find your self in the field.
This is all that you really need. A proper hit with an 30.06 will kill an Elk.
Gun scribes make their rent payments writing about 700 yard last day of the season, Boone and Crockett troph elk shots, taken at the last moment of legal light. Real world hunting is a little differant.
When it comes to ELK the shooting part is the easiest part.

 

[moooose102]

WHAT, YOU DON'T WANT TO USE A .223!?!?!
any of those listed would do a good job on elk. I AM SURE YOU COULD DOWN LOAD THE 338, BUT IT WOULD STILL BE PRETTY POTENT AT ANY DECENT VELOCITY. PERSONALLY, I SHOOT DEER WITH 300 MAG FACTORY LOADS. A BIT OVER KILL, BUT I DONT HAVE TO CHASE THEM! ONLY NEGATIVE THING I WOULD HAVE TO SAY ABOUT A 30-06 IS IF YOU HAVE TO SHOOT PAST 300 YARDS. OTHER THAN THAT, AN '06 IS A GREAT CALIBER. IF I WERE TO SELL ALL MY RIFLES, I WOULD REPLACE ALL OF THEM WITH A 30-06. THE ONLY REAL QUESTION, IS WHY DID IT TAKE ME 30 YEARS TO LEARN THAT! GEESH.

 

[moooose102]

sorry about the cap locks, i hit it by mistake sometimes.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The .30-06, with a 250 yard zero, only gives up about 3 to 4 inches to the .300 WM at 400 yards.

Personally, I consider a shot at game at more than 400 yards to be a gamble, anyway. And that's being polite.

 

[Cucumber]

"They (larger, longer range calibers) won't compensate for poor range estimations."

No, not exactly....however, for example, a 180g bullet out of a 300 RUM has far less bullet drop @ 400+ yds than does a 180g 30-06, which does allow some compensation in it's accuracy.

Additionally, the point I was trying to make is that in the event you shoot at a target at 400+ yds, even hitting it accurately, the bullet energy of the larger cartridges is much greater than in a 140g .270 or a 180g 30-06.

Your point of poor range estimation is very true and well taken - even if I know my rifle's ranges @ 100y, 200, 300, etc, a misjudgement of 100y will likely yield a miss, or even worse..... a non-mortal wound.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Of all the choices given by the thread starter. You can't go wrong with any of them the 7MM being the absolute bottom of the list.

A 7MM IS NOT at all superior to a .30-06 ballistically or in kill department. It is basically a belted 06 in performance yet for some reason people that shoot them tend to think that they are some kind of a flat shooting death ray.

The 7MM offers such a tiny advantage in trajectory that it isn't worth mentioning and the benefits that are there are beyond the average hunters ability to use.

The 06 is a good choice the .338 is a great elk round as is the .300 win mag but the only one that offers any real world advantage over an 06 is the .338.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No, not exactly....however, for example, a 180g bullet out of a 300 RUM has far less bullet drop @ 400+ yds than does a 180g 30-06, which does allow some compensation in it's accuracy.

Technically, "drop" refers to how far a bullet falls in a given distance.

When we sight in, we aim above the horizontal, so the bullet is travelling upward in the initial phase of it's trajectory, and falls back to the horizontal at the zeroed range, then continues to fall.

With this understanding, if we zero a .30-06 at 225 yards, and the .300 RUM at the same range, they are only about 6 inches apart at 400 yards -- an amount less than the average rifleman can hold from a field position.

 

[BENELLIMONTE]

The 338 Win. Mag with 250 grain Nosler Partitions is the cats meow for big bull elk here in Idaho. For cow elk or for those of you who have difficulty with recoil the 300 WSM, 30-06 or 270with Nosler Partitons is the way to go.

 

[elktrout]

The replies that recommend the biggest gun you can shoot accurately, topped with a quality scope, are worth strong consideration. A friend of mine has killed 38 elk since he was 19 years old and has worked as a guide for many years, witnessing many elk killed by clients. He has killed elk with 243s, 7mags, 300 mags, and even a 375 H&H. His personal recommendation is 300mags (for flatter trajectory and ability to buck the wind) and Nosler Partitions.

He claims there is a distinct difference in impact effect between the 30 and larger calibers and those less than 30 caliber, regardless of what the paper ballistics say. He shot a lot of elk with the 7mm and then switched to 300s and has never gone back since. His personal gun is a 300 Weatherby, which he saved for years to buy.

 

[Elgin47]

Unless you're hunting in country like this, then maybe not so much....

 

[Meeteetse]

Lots of years (45+) hunting Mule Deer and Elk in my home state of Wyoming. Half the time I used a 30/06 of some brand, shooting a 180 gr. bullet. The rest of the time I used a light weight bolt gun in .308. Both worked and I never failed to harvest game. I switched to the light weight rifle because it is easier to haul it up and down the mountains. Even the horses appreciated it.

Many of my shots have been around 100 yds, but many were beyond 200. I try to limit myself to 250 max. and work hard to keep shots close to 100 yds. In Wyoming that isn't always possible. I have never had a 30 caliber, 165-180 gr. bullet at 2700-2900 fps fail to take game. Personally I like a 2x7 scope, but I have used a 4x for years on some rifles. High power scopes don't replace good binoculars and don't make you a good shot at long distances. Get as close as you can.

If you are coming to the Rockies for Elk, it won't make any difference what gun you carry if you are not prepared for the altitude. I you don't control your heart rate and breathing you will never be able to make a shot.

 

[warrior283]

Cost for riflw with decent scope

How much would it cost for one with the decent scope on it, i plan on going hunting next winter with my girl frinds dad when i get back from basic.

Please send me personal message with answer

Thanks
Warrior283

 

[Temp430]

I've taken several elk with a .30-06 and it is a GREAT all purpose caliber. However, if I was to buy a perfect elk gun, now days I think it would be a 300 Rem Ultra Mag with a Leupold 3.5-10x50mm. I have had several 500 - 600 yard opportunities at elk that I may have tried if I had a 300 RUM instead of a .30-06. Just don't forget to pack your ammo for your hunting trip. .300 RUM ammo might be a little hard to find in places like Chama, NM.

 

[Elgin47]

Thanks for reducing my image, Moderator - didn't mean to blow up the thread.

Well, heck - now it doesn't look like it was reduced - sorry, meant well....feel free to delete it if it's a problem.

 

[35 Whelen]

Lots of years (45+) hunting Mule Deer and Elk in my home state of Wyoming. Half the time I used a 30/06 of some brand, shooting a 180 gr. bullet. The rest of the time I used a light weight bolt gun in .308. Both worked and I never failed to harvest game. I switched to the light weight rifle because it is easier to haul it up and down the mountains. Even the horses appreciated it.

Many of my shots have been around 100 yds, but many were beyond 200. I try to limit myself to 250 max. and work hard to keep shots close to 100 yds. In Wyoming that isn't always possible. I have never had a 30 caliber, 165-180 gr. bullet at 2700-2900 fps fail to take game. Personally I like a 2x7 scope, but I have used a 4x for years on some rifles. High power scopes don't replace good binoculars and don't make you a good shot at long distances. Get as close as you can.

If you are coming to the Rockies for Elk, it won't make any difference what gun you carry if you are not prepared for the altitude. I you don't control your heart rate and breathing you will never be able to make a shot.

What a shame that wisdom such as above goes unnoticed.

35W

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Yep...I agree.

 

[Shawnee]

+1 for what Meeteetse said.

I don't know how a 9-lb. rifle can gain 20lbs. per hour but they can!

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay, I have to go to work shortly, but this:

A 7MM IS NOT at all superior to a .30-06 ballistically or in kill department. It is basically a belted 06 in performance yet for some reason people that shoot them tend to think that they are some kind of a flat shooting death ray.

Is just a gigantic load of steaming bull-pucky.

While the differences between the 06 and the 7mm RM are small enough so as to not be noticed or appreciated for the majority of shots taken in the field, to say there is no difference is to equate a commercial Corvette with a stock car by simply noting both will get you from Point A to Point B.

The 7mm Rem Mag will shoot bullets of similar weight 100 to 200 fps faster than the 06 from the same length barrel, when both are loaded to their potential. So that 180 gr bullet you load to 2800 fps from a 24 inch barrel in your 06 is fine, but the 7mm can do about 3000 with a 175 gr bullet from the same length barrel. But so what? Big deal, right?

The difference comes from the fact the the majority of .284 caliber hunting bullets have higher BCs than .30 caliber bullets of similar weight and construction. This means they resist drag better. This means less velocity is lost, which aside from providing small gains in trajectory and wind drift, also has the benefit of increasing the range a hunter can shoot a game animal and expect the bullet to expand.

Most bullets suitable for elk require 1900 to 2100 fps to expand. So if the OP is can't get closer than 450 yards, the 7mm will provide usable benefits.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'm with you on the BC thing....but,

3000 fps with 175's from 7mm RM is a tad optimistic...I've loaded them to 2,900 fps (67.2 grains of RL25, IIRC)...and that was a Kreiger barrel.

EDITED TO ADD: And I ain't skeered when it comes to reloading...I'm careful, but I have no issues about pushing the limits...still have all my fingers too.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Alrighty then,

3000 fps with a 175gr bullet is more than a little optimistic it's dangerously overpressure. But even if you could get a 175gr 7MM to 3000 fps out of a R7MM. Do the math and tell me how much point blank range you've actually gained over a .30-06 with 180 gr bullet leaving the nozzle @ 2800 FPS.

I'll do the math for you with similar BC bullets you've gained.....Wait for it.....About 50 yards further point blank range.

But realistically at more earthly velocities with a 7MM I.E. a 175 @ 2800-2900 the gain is so small that it isn't worth mentioning.

I am not saying that a 7MM is a worthless elk round. Far from it, rather it simply is NOT the super long range death ray elk rifle that some try to make it out as.

It's got about the same effective range as an 06 give or take an inconsequential number they are both about the same power level when it comes to killing an elk. What the 30-06 lacks in velocity it makes up for in bullet weight and diameter.

Of course on paper with similar SD's the 7MM looks like a better killer. Field experience tells us otherwise.

If you really want to step up your effective range a killing power at longer range you need to step up in diameter and bullet weight. I.E. .338,.340 Weatherby ETC. Then you start getting out to ranges where without the right stuff on the back end of the rifle all that down range energy isn't doing you much good unless you got the stuff to use it.

 

[bpl]

Just wanted to throw out the idea that the equivalent bullet in 7mm to a 180gr .30cal with regard to BC and SD would be around 155-160gr, not 175gr. A 175gr 7mm bullet would be expected to penetrate more like a 200gr .30cal bullet, not a 180gr .30cal. Any thoughts on this?

 

[austin360]

300 WSM, 180 Grain Winchester ballistic tip.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I have had great luck on elk using an old .30-06 bolt gun (Rem 721) and an entry level 3-9x40 scope. Nothing fancy, or high dollar, but it puts meat in the freezer and antlers on the wall. My loads of choice are the factory 220 gr. RNSPs. Its amazing how effective bullets are that fall into the "classical" school of terminal ballistics- extremely high sectional density at moderate velocities. My last 5x6 bull was hit in the boiler room at 200 yds with a Federal Classic 220 gr RNSP. He went maybe 50-75 yards before dropping. I can't complain.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Alrighty then,

3000 fps with a 175gr bullet is more than a little optimistic it's dangerously overpressure. But even if you could get a 175gr 7MM to 3000 fps out of a R7MM. Do the math and tell me how much point blank range you've actually gained over a .30-06 with 180 gr bullet leaving the nozzle @ 2800 FPS.

I'll do the math for you with similar BC bullets you've gained.....Wait for it.....About 50 yards further point blank range.

You're missing the whole point, and it is blatantly obvious.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a 175 gr .284 bullet with a BC similar to a 180 gr .308 caliber bullet with the same style and construction?

The whole point is that the velocity advantage of the 7mm isn't all that great at the muzzle, but the larger average BC of its projectiles increases this advantage with range.

As mentioned, it's more fair to compare the .284 caliber 175 gr to a 200 or even 220 gr .308 caliber round in terms of ability to penetrate on game. And when you consider the velocity advantage the 7mm Rem Mag is going to have with a 175 gr bullet at 2900 (excuse me) fps as compared to the 200 or 220 gr out of an 06, the differences in trajectory become more appreciable.

Consider these SDs:

7mm 160 gr- .283
7mm 175 gr- .310
.30 cal 180 gr- .271
.30 cal 200 gr- .301
.338 cal 250 gr- .313

This means that in order to match the SD of the 175 gr 7mm, you have to go up to 220 gr .30 cal or skip .30 cal altogether and go with the 250 gr .338 caliber projectile. Either of these options has serious drawbacks when compared to the 7mm RM with the 175 gr bullet. The .30 cal with the 220 gr bullet isn't going to have near the trajectory of the 7mm round due to the fact that the vast majority of 220 gr .30 caliber hunting bullets are RN or semi-spitzers that lack both the BC and intial velocity of the 7mm RM/175 gr combo. And the .338 cal/250 gr combo is going to produce much more recoil.

Which brings us back to BC. Take the 175 gr .284 caliber Nosler Partition with a velocity of 2900 fps and a BC of .519 and compare it to the 180 gr .30 caliber Nosler Partition with a starting velocity of 2800 fps and a BC of .474. Heck, note even that the BC of the 175 gr .284 caliber Partition, flat base and all, is still appreciably higher than the 180 gr .30 caliber Nosler Ballistic Tip and Accubond projectiles, even with their polymer tips and boat tails. And of course, once again, that is the point--the BCs aren't similar. The velocities may be, but the BCs of most hunting bullets are, on average, very much in favor of the 7mm. So the velocity advantage it begins with is not the velocity advantage it ends with 400 yards downrange on the rib cage of a bull.

The only hunting bullet on the market that I have found that even really compares to the 7mm offerings are a couple of 200 gr spitzer boat tails, namely Sierra's 200 gr Gameking with a BC of .560 and Nosler's 200 gr Accubond with a BC of .588. And to really appreciate these bullets you have to step up to a .30 caliber magnum because the 06 isn't going to be able to push these bullets much past what, like 2500 to 2600 fps?

I don't have my external ballistics software here, so I am kind of handicapped in this debate. But run a .284 caliber 160 gr Nosler Accubond or 162 gr Hornady SST with a BC of .531 and .551 at 3000 fps (which I know to be possible because I have done it), and see how it compares with any .30 caliber load you want to run it against at .30-06 velocities.

I think that you'll find that a) you can't shrug off a 150 fps velocity advantage turning into a 300 fps velocity advantage by the time it gets downrange 400 to 500 yards and b) while not an earth shattering advantage in energy or trajectory, it can be appreciated and certainly, having that advantage at the expense of 5 to 10 grains more powder with virtually no increase in recoil is attractive. And again, on longer shots, velocity becomes crucial not only for its contribution to energy, but because it allows bullets to expand. Even if you have a .30 or .338 caliber magnum with a larger bullet driven at moderate velocities, any energy advantage these rounds produce is only going to be noticed if the rounds still have enough velocity when they get downrange to cause the bullet's to expand. Bullet manufactures often indicate this velocity threshold to be around 1900 fps. So if you have access to external ballistics software, compare the range at which the 7mm loaded with a 175 gr Nosler Partition at 2900 fps or a 160 gr Accubond at 3000 fps reaches this velocity threshold compared to your pet .30-06 hunting load, or even some of the .30 and .338 caliber magnum hunting loads on the market.

These, again, are advantages that aren't likely to be appreciable on the vast majority of hunting shots. But the OP has indicated the possibility of a 400 yard shot. While I am all for getting closer if it is possible, it is not always possible, and I am a firm believer that 400 and 500 yard shots on game by any reasonably competent marksmen should not be a problem. If it is within the OP's capabilities to take a 400 yard shot, and such a shot is a possibility, I think the advantages of a 7mm Rem Mag are appreciable.