Ellensburg, WA Open Carry Letter to Editor

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It isn't going to work.

Soon, you won't have any legal way to even own a weapon.

You will have accomplished nothing.

If you stated your goals correctly, I would expect any adult to be more effective than you will be, and achieve more than anything you're going to accomplish.

The basis for the right to bear arms is that no one has a duty to protect others, and therefore, we must protect ourselves.

Willingness to protect others has nothing to do with it- no one has a duty to protect others.

And finally, the law doesn't care what you believe. The law is the law.

That is precisely how I would want it, otherwise, none of us would be able to carry.

Under our laws, open carry in a Fred Meyer can not only make you more likely to be a criminal, but it can easily make you a criminal. As you're about to find out.

Civil disobedience can and does work, but not the way you're doing it. Civil disobedience can produce real change. You're simply going to produce yet-another-criminal record.
 
I would like to say that the posts in this thread by Antsi are very well-reasoned and many people could do a lot worse than to follow his wise advice. I thought his comments were spot on as to perception being reality and if you wish to effect political change, you have to be perceived as making a logical and sensible point.
 
The only thing efforts like that will change is our state economy.

Soon, we'll need more jails, and that will result in a boom for commercial builders, and work for the organized construction workers.
 
"It isn't going to work.

Soon, you won't have any legal way to even own a weapon."


So be it.

"...LEGAL way to even own a weapon." And I was of the understanding that an individual's right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Yes, the 2nd amendment means this should never be a LEGAL matter which the government even has the ability to decide. If government usurps this power, I would like to think that free citizen's would throw off those chains, (not willingly accept them).

Also, I never said a duty to protect others... I said a duty to protect the innocent. Some may feel no calling to do this, that is certainly up to them. Though, I believe able-body citizens should bear this responsibility, (to the point of calling it a "duty").



Antsi,

For me, this matter has not been one of politics. I do not willingly accept that the opinions of the masses should determine an individual's rights. If I fought for the right to bear arms on the political front, that would mean I accept that those opinions have the ability to effect that right. Of course, what any single citizen accepts does not amount to a hill of beans.

This does not mean I don't encourage those around to keep and bear arms. But, I do this because gun ownership is for their own best interests, not for politically gain.

I do wish more gunowners would be willing to make the stand against CCW permits. And I do feel now is a better time for action then later. But, I cannot call up 20 or 30 friends everytime I feel the need to bear arms. In fact, I cannot call up 10 friends who are even willing to make the stand to open carry. They, like most, feel they have too much to lose, and are simply afraid of losing their "legal" ability keep and bear arms, (which, with the way the courts are leaning, is a risk).

On top of all that, the 2nd Amendment Foundation, based in Washington state, continues to ask for gunowners to willingly accept a CCW permit. Some gunowners in Washington are waiting for our legislature to pass a law that makes open carry legal. It would not then become a right, but just another ability the government "allows" citizens to do.



Finally, the court date has changed yet again. The prosecutor called today and is no longer asking for the delay. This means the jury trial is scheduled for 9 am this Friday.
 
I saw exactly what you said.

I said exactly what I meant.

Others includes the innocent. No one has a duty to protect either, as demonstrated by your admission that it's "...certainly up to them."

If it's up to them, it's not a duty. Perhaps you'd like to choose another word, and re-state your position.

May I suggest "fantasy"?
 
I remember a post about a fellow who was driving from Pullman to Spokane and was pulled over by a Spokane County Sheriff's Deputy and ended up being jailed for open carrying a loaded pistol. Or as was posted he had an unloaded pistol in his lap w/ a full mag next to it.

Was this you Fishorman? I recall the person being from the Ellensburg area.

Does anyone have an update?
 
"I do not willingly accept that the opinions of the masses should determine an individual's rights."

Then you deny the underlying foundation of democratic logic. Where do you think the codified rights such as the 2A came from if not the opinions of the masses? They were written to reflect just that, not handed down on stone tablets.

Its about "us", not just "you"
 
"Where do you think the codified rights such as the 2A came from if not the opinions of the masses?"

I don't THINK - I KNOW where the rights came from. In fact the same group of revolutionaries that wrote the 2nd Amnd TOLD us where the rights come from, something along the lines of "endowed by their Creator", if I recall correctly. No rights "come from" any amendmant, or any other piece of parchment - they are bestowed upon us by God. Putting certain of these rights forever beyond the reach of the "opinions of the masses" was the WHOLE POINT of the Bill of rights.
 
So, those that say there is no god have no rights?

The framers have been wrong about many things. Slaves, for instance.

Given that, itsn't it also possible that they were wrong about there being a god, and all rights coming from it?
 
I'm actually in agreement with Jammer Six and Antsi on this one ... and frankly, the whole idea of open carry into a grocery store is simply a bad, bad idea (at least in a college town in Washington state). As to the concept of civil disobediance, I think the common sense rule of thumb is to (1) pick your battles, but especially (2) don't engage in behavior that will not have clear meaning to all who may be witness ... an organized open carry event (perhaps with signs and appropriate pre-liaison with media) cannot be misconstrued ... but a pistol tucked into a waistband of a lone man in a grocery store? Holy cow, that just plain seems dumb.

I do wish more gunowners would be willing to make the stand against CCW permits. And I do feel now is a better time for action then later. But, I cannot call up 20 or 30 friends everytime I feel the need to bear arms. In fact, I cannot call up 10 friends who are even willing to make the stand to open carry. They, like most, feel they have too much to lose, and are simply afraid of losing their "legal" ability keep and bear arms,
Well -- yeah! No kidding ... we DO have too much to lose should we go out on lone wolf fashion wandering grocery stores with pistols tucked in waistbands. I think this type of action does far more harm than good to the RKBA movement in this state. And what type of action would you want gunowners to take against CCW permits in this state? Short of going to "Vermont style" no-permit-needed concealed carry -- which I predict is a dubious proposition at best in this state due to the political make-up -- we have some of the most lenient and least-restrictive CCW laws around as well as a fairly reasonable licensing system with no training or testing requirement (albeit a somewhat pricey fee for the first CPL issue). The best way to make a stand for open carry is to lobby one's elected representatives -- this is the only way to get this concept publicly accepted.

richyoung, not to get this thread further off-track or engage in a Constitutional argument, but I think you're confusing the Bill of Rights with the Declaration of Independence ... the only "inalienable rights" referred to in the DoI as endowed by the Creator are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... and as far as the BoR, the Preamble states that:
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
 
The Bill of Rights are a list of restrictive clauses placing pre-existing rights beyond the reach of the Federal government, or alternately, reserving them to the states or the people. They don't "give" rights - God gave them to you, (or, alternately, you have them simply by existing). Look at the wordings - "shall not be infringed", shall not pass any law", etc. Also, look at what they do - pretty much a laundry list of what the government CAN'T do. The Declaration of Independence is refered to because it is the instrument whereby a country that needed a Constitution existed in the first place, and spells out the roles and duties of a legitimate, as well as an illegitimate governement. Since both documents were crucial to establishing this country, examination of the first to better understand the second is a technique employed by the SCOTUS, as well as lesser courts.
 
Where do you think the codified rights such as the 2A came from if not the opinions of the masses?

They are pre-existing rights, and are not "granted" by anyone or anything. My right to bear arms exists because I exist. I own my body and my life, and have the right to defend same with whatever technology I have access to.
 
Jammer Six said:
So, those that say there is no god have no rights?

The framers have been wrong about many things. Slaves, for instance.

Given that, itsn't it also possible that they were wrong about there being a god, and all rights coming from it?

Typical Seattle-lite socialist nonsense. Whether or not you believe in G-d, isn't of issue, because even if you dont believe in him, he still believes in you. Secondly, read the Declaration of Independance.... "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...". The Laws of Nature is what is also known as Common Law.

Looks like you need a class to understand where rights are derived from, why you have any, and how they differ from a privledge.

Also bringing up the 'Slavery' is a strawman argument.
 
Old Dog, I would go one step further: there is one more thing necessary, in my opinion, public perception.

In that, I think, the heyday of civil disobedience is over.

Given the best possible outcome of an organized, open carry event, we would still need our opponents to make a mistake.

One person, in a grocery store with a gun will be perceived as a menace, and will do more to perpetuate the myth of fanatic gun nuts than the Hollywood Bank Shootout did. When the police show up, and put him on his knees, that is the image that will endure: a dangerous criminal, humbled by the overwhelming, wise and kind power of the state, unable to move without permission. The police in this scenario will be the heros, whether to witnesses, to the press, or to John and Jane Doe as they sip coffee and read the morning's coverage of it. They'll cluck their tongues, roll their eyes, and forget about it. They'll be glad he's gone, and thankfull we have such courageous police officers- imagine, going into that store to arrest a man with a gun!

With an organized, well attended event, there will still be a piece missing. This isn't the sixties, and today's police forces are just as savvy, just as intellegent, and just as aware as we are. The days of a grainy, black and white sequence of young blacks being swept off their feet by water cannon are gone. According to the History Channel, many American police agencies don't own and won't use water cannon against crowds for precisely that reason: it's efffect on public opinion.

That one image of one young man being carried away in a powerful jet of water did more for civil rights than a thousand peaceful, disciplined open carry protestors could today. The image of sixty pound German Shepard lunging at the end of a leash, and finally tearing loose to maul a protester that outweighed the dog by barely forty pounds created a sense of horror among everyone who saw the news that night, whether they were black or white, rich or poor, that we simply can't hope to match. Those images galvanized a nation, and forced it to listen to it's concience, and that type of image probably isn't available to us outside of pure, blind luck. It could happen, but engaging an opponent as powerful as the anti gun movement is and using luck as a strategy is, at best, a fool's course.

Our modern police agencies simply won't accomodate us. Modern police agencies are far more likely to have a beautiful sergeant, who is college educated, soft spoken, self assured and well managed quietly answering a reporter's questions than they are to overreact, and generate the sense of outrage, of terror and finally of disgust that fueled the civil rights movement and drove it to it's accomplishments.

Police agencies still make mistakes, and at times, the scale can be blindingly large. Here in Seattle, the two recent, best examples of that are the WTO and Mardi Gras riots, but the massive overreaction, on a force wide, simultaneous basis, the kind that civil disobedience depends on to generate real change in a divided society is, for the most part, a thing of the past.

It is good, very good that this is so, but it does mean that if real change is to be had, another way must be found. Power, real power is required. More power than can be bought, more power than any one person can muster.

Courage isn't enough. Money isn't enough. Anger isn't enough. Conviction isn't enough. He stood in front of a tank, and refused to move. In that case, the entire world saw him, and bore witness to his stand. More people in more places in more languages gave their attention to that instant than we could ever hope to attract to an open-carry protest anywhere in the United States.

And now, in the end, he's dead, and China is still the same. Nothing changed. The greatest impact his death had was as my fodder, to make this small, cheap point on an insignificant gun board in another country.

The difference between a revolutionary and a common criminal is simple: victory.

To walk into a grocery store in Washington state displaying a weapon is to surrender.
 
This does not take away their lawfully requirement to have "reasonable suspicion" before unwanted questioning and ID checks.

I agree with regards to ID checks. But you certainly do NOT need probable cause or even 'reasonable suspicion' to simply talk to a person. And they don't need any such circumstance to ASK for your ID either, they can't compell you to show it to them. But, even I can ASK to see your ID.

Can anyone in WA or anyone familiar with WA statutes cite the specific RCW that allows open carry?? Or prohibits it??

The problem here is that for all intents and purposes neither law exists. There is nothing in the RCWs that specifically allows OR denies the right to openly carry a firearm. There are some vague laws, very much open to interpretation, but nothing really definitive that expressly says wether its legal or not.
 
The problem here is that for all intents and purposes neither law exists. There is nothing in the RCWs that specifically allows OR denies the right to openly carry a firearm. There are some vague laws, very much open to interpretation, but nothing really definitive that expressly says wether its legal or not.

That's because the US Legal System is based upon negative law not positive law. Negative law is that until a Legislature passes a law that says 'No you cannot do XYZ' then you CAN DO IT. Even though the RCWs don't say you CAN roll over at night while you sleep, it's okay you can do it because there isn't a law that says you can't do it.

Positive Law is the exact opposite, you CAN'T DO ANYTHING until the rulers say you can do it. Want do roll over in bed while you sleep? Don't do it until the ruler says okay!

Think about it everytime the Congress or State Legislature passes a new law it's to restrict or to control an activity of some sort.
 
>Good for you for carrying

>you have to expect to be hassled in the current environment, that you carry anyway is commendable

>being hassled is not right

>good call on the nice, rational newspaper letter letting people know this

>get a holster, it is the proper and responsible way to carry a handgun.
 
RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.
 
FishOrMan

Here in Micigan there is nothing that says you cannot carry openly. That being said, another aspect of the law mentions brandishing.
In other words, if you carry openly, someone can call the police and say,"just seeing the gun upset me," therefor you are brandishing.
Sound crazy, you bet.
We are in much the same position as you in WA. (we have Meijers stores here also.)
In my humble opinion, we do not have the RKBA unless we can carry openly.
We need a law suite. Bad!!
I wish you every sucsess.
 
I stumbled into this today. Better description of the story and updates.
dean

fishorman.blogspot.com

In previewing this, the link wouldn't open so I did something wrong. Anyway google it, it's a good write up.
 
I was under the crazy impression that brandishing and "causing alarm" were generally confined to instances in which the gun is out of its holster rather than in it.

Because if it is possible to "cause alarm" or "brandish" without drawing a weapon, then merely carrying a weapon is illegal, and the distinction is a bogus one.

No reasonable person should take alarm at a person merely carrying a firearm, although I would probably get ready to draw if I saw a dishevled man walking around my store carrying a 45 mexican style (assuming I was in an open carry area anyway).
 
I was under the crazy impression that brandishing and "causing alarm" were generally confined to instances in which the gun is out of its holster
Yes, that is a crazy impression. I have no idea where you got it, but it doesn't apply here in Washington.

No reasonable person should take alarm at a person merely carrying a firearm, although I would probably get ready to draw if I saw a dishevled man walking around my store carrying a 45 mexican style (assuming I was in an open carry area anyway).
Just so we're sharing the same crazy definitions, given your propensity to write your own, private versions, what constitutes "dishevled"?

Long hair? Uncombed? Shirt untucked? Unshaven?

Does all that mean that if I run to the 7-11 at 3 A.M. to get my wife some anti-nausea medicine that I should be careful to tuck my shirt in, comb my hair and shave first?

Or should I leave my weapon at home to avoid alarming you?

One person's alarm is another person's weekend. Generally speaking, when someone calls 911, they're alarmed. If they're alarmed because they saw a weapon, it doesn't really matter whether anyone else is alarmed or not.

It amuses me greatly when I see people contradict themselves, particularly when they're red in the face and sputtering when they do it.

By the way, you probably want to keep personal appearances out of your legal definitions. You're clearly not prepared to deal with the consequences of basing legal actions on someone's appearance.

Have a nice day.
 
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