The Real Hawkeye
member
FishOrMan, you are doing us all a great service. Thanks for standing up for our rights.
Washington Open Carrying on 5/22/04
- Thread starter FishOrMan
- Start date
- Status
FishOrMan
Member
Thank you very much for your support. You are correct about LEOs. I would love it if these situations never arose.
But being treated like a lap-dog can make one act like a lap-dog. My wife remains the calming one. I am working on this as well, but I am not so sure I will ever be able to accept this serfdom treatment. I do not cuss at officer's or anywhere else for that matter. I simple ask them to do there job.
There job does not require talking with me, (fishing for a crime), or telling me the law, or acting like my friend, (this is a college town and I have heard on my scanner exactly how they talk about college age kids, and citizens in general for that matter, unless they know you personally they treat you like Saddam treated the Shiites, and that is when they are talking about the ones they think are unarmed. Opening carrying steps up to a whole new level of contempt).
The idea that I may one day be forced to shoot someone is so rare it is almost none existent, (atleast living in eastern washington), but I see your point. And I sincerely thank you for your advice, support and opinion, Mr. Geringer.
But being treated like a lap-dog can make one act like a lap-dog. My wife remains the calming one. I am working on this as well, but I am not so sure I will ever be able to accept this serfdom treatment. I do not cuss at officer's or anywhere else for that matter. I simple ask them to do there job.
There job does not require talking with me, (fishing for a crime), or telling me the law, or acting like my friend, (this is a college town and I have heard on my scanner exactly how they talk about college age kids, and citizens in general for that matter, unless they know you personally they treat you like Saddam treated the Shiites, and that is when they are talking about the ones they think are unarmed. Opening carrying steps up to a whole new level of contempt).
The idea that I may one day be forced to shoot someone is so rare it is almost none existent, (atleast living in eastern washington), but I see your point. And I sincerely thank you for your advice, support and opinion, Mr. Geringer.
Wildalaska
member
Then whay are you carrying a 45 into Fred Meyer...why be so provacative...why not just get a permit and toss a 32 in yer pocket
WildinquiringmindswanttoknowAlaska
The Real Hawkeye
member
Wild A, the law says he don't need no stinking permit!!! Get the movie reference, there? 
Anyway, if the laws says it's ok, then law enforcement should not be harassing him, right?
Anyway, if the laws says it's ok, then law enforcement should not be harassing him, right?Wildalaska
member
O we are following the law then?
That really doesnt answer the question...and we consider an officers inquiry harassment do we?
WilddifferentweltanshauungiguessAlaska
The Real Hawkeye
member
I'm not sure how to respond to you, Wild A. This was not a polite inquiry that happened. They grabbed the guy's gun. It is either legal to carry openly, or it is not. If it's legal, LEOs should not be stopping him every time they see him, snatching his gun, and surrounding him, while asking insulting and presumptuous questions. Your attitude is unbelievable. How did you pass the psych exam?
P.S. I should clarify. I am not suggesting you're crazy, but the exam is supposed to screen out applicants who have your kind of condescending attitude towards the public.
P.S. I should clarify. I am not suggesting you're crazy, but the exam is supposed to screen out applicants who have your kind of condescending attitude towards the public.
FishOrMan
Member
I said it was rare. I am not willing to risk my wife's life on rare. My life, fine. Your life, no problem. But some things are worth considering, even if rare. I would add that my wife is one of those things.... I hope you consider your loved ones to be as well.
Aguila Blanca
Member
WildAlaska:
Your mileage may vary.
I don't know about "we." I regard being stopped and questioned by police when I am not engaged in conduct that is illegal in appearance as harrassment. FishOrMan was not violating any law, ergo the police had no reason to hassle him.
Your mileage may vary.
rock jock
Member
Shock tactics almost always succeed in turning public opinion against your cause. Pro-life groups holding up aborted fetuses in jars during protests, Homosexuals openly simulating sex acts during gay pride parades, anti-war types accusing soldiers of being baby-killers,etc. All these things are perfectly legal, and yet not recommended. Invariably, they leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who witness them, even those who sympathize with your cause.
The Real Hawkeye
member
His conduct is not shocking to a free people. If sheeple, however, find it shocking, then they require more exposure to it, not less. Perhaps it will rub off.
SAG0282
Member
Well, best of luck to ya man. You have our best interests at heart and you're fighting for our gun rights in your own way. While I disagree somewhat with your tactics, you have my respect anyway.
Take care.
Take care.
rock jock
Member
You have proved my point. This is exactly the attitude of every zealot that feels compelled to tell the world how foolish it is. Mind you, the message may be justified, but the method of delivery makes it mute.
fix
Member
In some movie a guy said, "If my answers scare you, you should cease askin' scary questions."
ksnecktieman
Member
Thank you fishorman,,,, we will know you were successful when a 911 call about a man with a gun is responded to with the words,,,,,,, "SO? Is he doing anything with it? All of our officers are busy chasing a vicious dog, and gurading school zones.
Make them think, I am sure the chief of police will pay attention, and eventually stop wasting his officers time.
Let's see? Five officers? At least three vehicles. At least thirty minutes for each. Then paperwork, you may have used up five hours of leo time. Continue and they will stop.
Make them think, I am sure the chief of police will pay attention, and eventually stop wasting his officers time.
Let's see? Five officers? At least three vehicles. At least thirty minutes for each. Then paperwork, you may have used up five hours of leo time. Continue and they will stop.
gunsmith
member
heh!
I carry open in AZ as well,even in Scotsdale no peeps from the sheep!
I am 45 yrs old!
Check this out
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3567
I was carrying open in rural NV this weekend no one said peep.
I carry open in AZ as well,even in Scotsdale no peeps from the sheep!
I am 45 yrs old!
Check this out
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=3567
The Real Hawkeye
member
Gunsmith, that was a great article. That wasn't you in the story, was it?
FishOrMan
Member
Treylis
Member
I don't think that's even analogous except for perhaps some distant relation to the gay pride stuff. In all of those cases, the people are actively trying to get attention. The anti-abortion folks, for example, want people to become fixated on those images and then do something about it. We just want it so that people will go: "Oh, hey, it's just another guy with a 1911 on his hip, he's not waving it around in the air, he's just doing his own thing, big whoop". We want to REDUCE attention.
I see people openly carrying a LOT of the time here in Arizona, and I'd hate to see that tradition go away. I've had literally hundreds of police officers look at me, note that I'm not doing anything weird and carrying in a proper holster, I nod and say hello, they return the greeting, and leave me alone. That kind of attitude desperately needs to be exported to other states.
rock jock
Member
Treylis,
That's AZ, and I'm glad for you. But WA is not at that point yet. A lot of other states are not either. First you acclimate folks to the idea that guns are not bad, that CCW is not bad, and then you move onto open carry. At least that's what I think is a good path forward.
That's AZ, and I'm glad for you. But WA is not at that point yet. A lot of other states are not either. First you acclimate folks to the idea that guns are not bad, that CCW is not bad, and then you move onto open carry. At least that's what I think is a good path forward.
Ultimately, that is your goal, but in the meantime tactics like this are counterproductive.
Open carry is good when appropriate
I can only say that everyone must critically assess the conditions under which they decide to open carry.
FishOrMan does not have a CCW, and so therefore MUST open carry.
I will have my CHP soon, however there are reasons for open carrying a sidearm in urban Richmond, VA that are politically and socially practical. There are a large number of people who are completely unaware that any adult in VA can purchase and openly carry a firearm anywhere they wish, aside from a very few places specified in the VA code.
VCDL, the Virginia Citizen's Defense League, is a gun rights organization that has made spectacular strides in combating restrictive gun legislation in VA, and assisting neighboring states to fight for their freedoms as well. I am encouraged to open carry by many of the older members, some of whom are ex-military and ex-police. I have received encouragement from state senators, congressmen, and general assembly people. I have interacted with many police officers and business owners as a result of my decision to carry openly, and have educated myself and others about both the legality and the social aspects of carry rights. Right now in Richmond, we are waging social and political battles to retain and regain 2A rights, and so it is more important to open carry here than it is where such a thing is not an issue.
I will be receiving a CHP to both cover my legal behind, in case I accidentally conceal a weapon in a manner that would otherwise be in violation of VA code, as well as to gain other privileges not afforded to no-permit holders. If I can exercise those privileges with a permit, then I can help open the door for other citizens to exercise those same acts without a permit - as a RIGHT. Sometimes it is also better to carry concealed so as to not HAVE to draw attention.
There are times to press the issue, and there are times not to. All I ask is that the people involved behave in a calm and rational manner, and make the rest of us carriers proud by their actions and words and attitudes.
I will go out to dinner with 15-20 people openly carrying, and it can be quite amusing to have people sitting nearby ask if we are with the FBI or something. Then we all engage in friendly conversation with them and invite them to check out the VCDL website - www.VCDL.org .
C'mon folks, relax and debate the issue - stop acting like you're the only ones in the right and realize that there are situations in which either mode of carry may be more appropriate than the other.
Topgunner
I can only say that everyone must critically assess the conditions under which they decide to open carry.
FishOrMan does not have a CCW, and so therefore MUST open carry.
I will have my CHP soon, however there are reasons for open carrying a sidearm in urban Richmond, VA that are politically and socially practical. There are a large number of people who are completely unaware that any adult in VA can purchase and openly carry a firearm anywhere they wish, aside from a very few places specified in the VA code.
VCDL, the Virginia Citizen's Defense League, is a gun rights organization that has made spectacular strides in combating restrictive gun legislation in VA, and assisting neighboring states to fight for their freedoms as well. I am encouraged to open carry by many of the older members, some of whom are ex-military and ex-police. I have received encouragement from state senators, congressmen, and general assembly people. I have interacted with many police officers and business owners as a result of my decision to carry openly, and have educated myself and others about both the legality and the social aspects of carry rights. Right now in Richmond, we are waging social and political battles to retain and regain 2A rights, and so it is more important to open carry here than it is where such a thing is not an issue.
I will be receiving a CHP to both cover my legal behind, in case I accidentally conceal a weapon in a manner that would otherwise be in violation of VA code, as well as to gain other privileges not afforded to no-permit holders. If I can exercise those privileges with a permit, then I can help open the door for other citizens to exercise those same acts without a permit - as a RIGHT. Sometimes it is also better to carry concealed so as to not HAVE to draw attention.
There are times to press the issue, and there are times not to. All I ask is that the people involved behave in a calm and rational manner, and make the rest of us carriers proud by their actions and words and attitudes.
I will go out to dinner with 15-20 people openly carrying, and it can be quite amusing to have people sitting nearby ask if we are with the FBI or something. Then we all engage in friendly conversation with them and invite them to check out the VCDL website - www.VCDL.org .
C'mon folks, relax and debate the issue - stop acting like you're the only ones in the right and realize that there are situations in which either mode of carry may be more appropriate than the other.
Topgunner
The Real Hawkeye
member
Yeah, but it will be that way eventually, only if people get accustomed to seeing it, and seeing that the police cannot do anything to stop it, and that no harm is being done. Right now there exists a superstition in this nation, implanted into most everybody by liberal TV, movies and public education, that guns, unless they are in the hands of the police, are bad and will cause bad things to happen. Superstition can only be cured with repeated exposure to the feared object. Someone who is convinced that walking under a ladder will result in something bad happening to them needs to see a dozen people walk under a ladder and observe that nothing bad happened to them. If you protect them from seeing it, however, then the superstition stays and, in fact, gets worse with passing years. The same applies to the "gun in the possession of regular folks=bad things will happen" superstition. Exposure is the cure.
El Rojo
Member
Again Alaska, you make a subjective comment like it is fact, but offer no real supporting evidence. According to our Arizona members here, normal people do walk into malls and stores with a gun on their hip. You don't have to think it is normal. However, I would hope you would recognize his right to do so and respect that right. Instead you label him a numbnuts and claim he is looking for trouble. Your comments are not consistent with liberty minded citizens of a free country. I do find your comments consistant with those of urban dwellers who fear firearms and the people who carry them. Again, very disappointing.
It is hard to evaluate this comment. I think we would go either way with it. I could make arguments that you might be right, I could probably make arguements that you are wrong. When it comes down to it, it depends from person to person, county to county, state to state. The question is do most states allow concealed carry and not open carry? If a state had concealed carry and not open carry, then you are pretty much stuck. What about this case in Washington. It is lawful for him to carry openly. He doesn't want to spend the money to get a permit, so he carries openly. Should Fishorman take into consideration the best possible means of converting everyone when carrying a firearm? Or should he focus on the real reason for carrying a weapon, protecting himself, his wife, and those around him? We will never win them all. So to say everyone will be repulsed by his carrying openly or that no one will care is to broad a statement. Everyone is different. If he carries responsibly (think about getting a good retention holster) and acts rationally and calmly, then there isn't much more we should expect from him. He is following the law and he is being a good representative of HIS cause (I don't live in Washington and I have my CCW, so he isn't effecting my rights).
As far as the open carry is a big target and some people don't prefer it, that is fine. It is Fishorman's life, he gets to take the risks he wants. I don't think I would take Alaska's stance of discouraging from doing so if he wanted. As I am keeping an eye on Fishorman because I notice his .45 on his side and someone suddenly shoots him, that is good for me. That gives me a chance to then take the initiative on who ever shot him. So if open carry and concealed carry were available in my state, I wouldn't discourage someone from open carry. Do what you want. I trust you. And I accept your acceptance of additional risk as a means to reduce my risk.
I like not looking like someone who has a Glock in their wasteband.NINEX19
Member
People, people, people,.... slow d o w n!
Forgetting if open carry is right or wrong from a social standpoint, assuming it is legal in your state and not viewing it from a strict constitutional stand point; Washington State is NOT an open carry state.
Read the laws carefully. I have been a lifelong resident of WA and a CPL holder from many years. I know the gun laws of my land ( as should all of you of your own part of the country).
RCW 9.41.270 is where the answer is found to this argument:
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
This discussion is also at TFL:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148017
Don't assume because someone on this forum says "_____is law" does that mean that person has not been misinformed or is misunderstanding what the law says. Do your homework people, before jumping on bandwagons.
Forgetting if open carry is right or wrong from a social standpoint, assuming it is legal in your state and not viewing it from a strict constitutional stand point; Washington State is NOT an open carry state.
Read the laws carefully. I have been a lifelong resident of WA and a CPL holder from many years. I know the gun laws of my land ( as should all of you of your own part of the country).
RCW 9.41.270 is where the answer is found to this argument:
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
This discussion is also at TFL:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148017
Don't assume because someone on this forum says "_____is law" does that mean that person has not been misinformed or is misunderstanding what the law says. Do your homework people, before jumping on bandwagons.
RCW 9.41.270 is where the answer is found to this argument:
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
I think what everyone has to remember is that it's a perception issue, meaning that you can get into trouble if a person feels intimidated because you are carrying openly, open carry or not it's how it is percieved, if it warrents alarm you can be charged, I venture to bet that he would not get off so lightly had he done this in Seattle...
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm -- Unlawful carrying or handling -- Penalty -- Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
I think what everyone has to remember is that it's a perception issue, meaning that you can get into trouble if a person feels intimidated because you are carrying openly, open carry or not it's how it is percieved, if it warrents alarm you can be charged, I venture to bet that he would not get off so lightly had he done this in Seattle...
I'm not from AZ, but I've been in Phoenix and seen open carry on several occasions with no one paying any attention whatsoever. This to me is proof that if the public becomes used to seeing it, it becomes a non issue.
As to the WA law, the word "warrants" indicates not just that someone is alarmed, but that they have good reason to be alarmed. Whether or not simply seeing a gun is enough to "warrant" being alarmed would be decided by a jury, if it went that far. Seems a stretch, but who knows.
Not sure I'd want to risk it but my hat's off to FishOrMan for standing up for himself. I've also been to Ellensburg, and it sounds like the police maybe don't have enough to do.
As to the WA law, the word "warrants" indicates not just that someone is alarmed, but that they have good reason to be alarmed. Whether or not simply seeing a gun is enough to "warrant" being alarmed would be decided by a jury, if it went that far. Seems a stretch, but who knows.
Not sure I'd want to risk it but my hat's off to FishOrMan for standing up for himself. I've also been to Ellensburg, and it sounds like the police maybe don't have enough to do.
- Status