EMF Great Western II vs. Cimarron Frontier - Differences?

[Tallinar]

Hi there,

I'm trying to wrap my head around the current state of the SAA replica market -- specifically the world of EMF/Taylor's/Cimarron and Uberti/Pietta.

Historically, I've owned only Vaqueros and Blackhawks, but I have a hankering to add a more classical SAA replica to my collection. I'm looking for a plain Jane, 4-click, no new-fangled safety mechanism, true-to-form replica, to shoot smokeless powder loads.

From what I've read thus far, it would seem that the Pietta Great Western II's would be exactly what I am after -- specifically a 7.5" "Californian", if I could find one. However, I came to learn the other day that the Cimarron Frontier guns are also made by Pietta, unlike the other Cimarron guns that are made by Uberti.

Can anyone speak to the details of the differences between the Cimarron Frontiers and the GWII's. From what I've picked up on various forum searches, I've read everything from "they are the exact same gun," to "the one is leaps and bounds better than the other." The GWII's seem to have the generally better reputation, but I can't quite figure out why.

Specifically, these are the two models I am comparing:

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/sa-frontier-pre-war-45-colt-7-1-2-in.html
http://piettausa.com/Californian-Standard-Grip-45LC-75-_p_805.html

If they really are the same gun, the Frontiers seem to be generally more available right now.

Thanks!

 

[Choctaw]

I haven't had an EMF in years, but I have had several Cimarron Frontiers by Pietta. The fit and finish on all of my guns was very good and the color case hardening was better than what I found on Ubertis. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

 

[45 Dragoon]

I have a Cimarron Frontier in 45C made by Pietta (Cimarron uses the "Frontier" banner regardless of which manufacturer). It's the first Pietta SAA copy I've ever owned. The ASM version I had many many years ago ( long before I knew what I know now) was a nice one but it got traded. Just a few yrs ago I got an Uberti made El Patron Competition. That was a very nice revolver out of the box ( 4 clicks)! The built-in hammer block safety was the best "safety" they ever had! But, like "4 clicks" that's a thing of the past as well.
My Frontier is the latest copy and at this point its the best ever! Of course I've done everything to it that I do ( + some !) including adding a 45acp cyl to it.
That being said, it was a "used" gun that my lgs got in and held just for me, thinking I would "bite". They were right but it had its problems. The hand slot was so far out of spec, the hand would just barely make contact with the ratchet. Cycling it fast would often induce throw-by which had already put a faint "Beauty ring" on the cyl!! Because of this, I don't think it was ever fired. Anyway, after clearancing the hand slot and replacing the bolt (for timing purposes as well as correct functioning) it has become the "Best" as far as that platform goes!! I replaced the original cyl as well so . . . no more ring!!
So, you can select a Pietta Frontier and get 4 clicks or they may offer an Uberti bp frame version that still has 4 clicks ( I'm not pos.) or, if you sorce a 4 click hammer and trigger for the Uberti, that'll work too.
Good luck!!

Mike

 

[CraigC]

I can't speak with any authority. I own a couple of GW II's but no Cimarron Pietta. That said, I can't imagine there being much difference, if any. Fairly certain all the Pietta's are without goofy safety mechanisms, like Uberti's atrocious retractable firing pin, unless you get the Heritage version. I have yet to buy a Uberti SAA with the retractable firing pin (just the 1862 Pocket) but I've accumulated a few old style hammer/trigger sets for future posterity.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

As far as I know they are the same. EMF has more variants in its catalog although finding them all is a challenge these days.

I’ve always liked the Pietta 1873s. They’ve gained popularity since Uberti’s Cattleman 2 system has rolled out.

 

[Archie]

I have a (Armi) Jager SA revolver in .44-40. I bought it some years ago (1985 or so) for cowboy shooting. Jager is no longer a manufacturer.
I have an Uberti made Cimarron in .45 Colt. No reason for buying it other than it looked fun and the odd chambering of the Jager give me a bit of unease.

They both strike me as well made revolvers. They work well, without fiddling with them. Triggers are pretty clean and functional without stoning or other labor. All parts look they belong.
I have a good respect for Italian made firearms.

 

[wgf]

I just bought a 45 Colt / 45 ACP Pietta Great Western II. It is a 4 click action. Over all the fit and finish is not on par with Ruger Vaqueros, but the functionality is good and getting better. Check out the duelist 1954 channel video on cleaning up a Pietta 1851. That video pretty much describes the condition of my gun. Mine is timed perfectly and locks up tight for firing. I am working on the sharp edges and adjusting the sights. The 45 Colt targets are on the left, 45 ACP on the right. Gun was fired with two hands standing at 10 yards. 2nd target without the gun was fired after filing down the front sight and painting the back of the sight blade gold. I think the groups will tighten up as I get used to the sights. I like mine

 

[Mn Fats]

I have a Cimarron Frontier in 45C made by Pietta (Cimarron uses the "Frontier" banner regardless of which manufacturer). It's the first Pietta SAA copy I've ever owned. The ASM version I had many many years ago ( long before I knew what I know now) was a nice one but it got traded. Just a few yrs ago I got an Uberti made El Patron Competition. That was a very nice revolver out of the box ( 4 clicks)! The built-in hammer block safety was the best "safety" they ever had! But, like "4 clicks" that's a thing of the past as well.
My Frontier is the latest copy and at this point its the best ever! Of course I've done everything to it that I do ( + some !) including adding a 45acp cyl to it.
That being said, it was a "used" gun that my lgs got in and held just for me, thinking I would "bite". They were right but it had its problems. The hand slot was so far out of spec, the hand would just barely make contact with the ratchet. Cycling it fast would often induce throw-by which had already put a faint "Beauty ring" on the cyl!! Because of this, I don't think it was ever fired. Anyway, after clearancing the hand slot and replacing the bolt (for timing purposes as well as correct functioning) it has become the "Best" as far as that platform goes!! I replaced the original cyl as well so . . . no more ring!!
So, you can select a Pietta Frontier and get 4 clicks or they may offer an Uberti bp frame version that still has 4 clicks ( I'm not pos.) or, if you sorce a 4 click hammer and trigger for the Uberti, that'll work too.
Good luck!!

Mike

OP, this man does this for a living. I've learned to simply second everything he says when it comes to the Italian repros.

Glad you're on THR, Mike. Spreading the knowledge.

 

[Tallball]

I got an inexpensive Cimarron SAA clone a year ago and have been impressed with the quality and shooting.

Good luck to the OP.

 

[Tallinar]

Thanks for the replies. I just ordered a Cimarron Frontier, model PP415 (.45 Colt, 7.5" barrel). I'll update this thread with some pictures and commentary once I get it.

 

[Tallball]

Congratulations! If my friend asks me to bring my Cimarron to the range next time, I think it will be because he's talked himself into buying one.

 

[CraigC]

I just bought a 45 Colt / 45 ACP Pietta Great Western II. It is a 4 click action. Over all the fit and finish is not on par with Ruger Vaqueros, but the functionality is good and getting better. Check out the duelist 1954 channel video on cleaning up a Pietta 1851. That video pretty much describes the condition of my gun. Mine is timed perfectly and locks up tight for firing. I am working on the sharp edges and adjusting the sights. The 45 Colt targets are on the left, 45 ACP on the right. Gun was fired with two hands standing at 10 yards. 2nd target without the gun was fired after filing down the front sight and painting the back of the sight blade gold. I think the groups will tighten up as I get used to the sights. I like mine

What about the GWII's fit & finish do you think is less than that of the Vaquero?

 

[wgf]

My GWII had many edges that were sharp. The ejector tube was not fitted properly and popped out of alignment. The inside of the loading gate was not flush with the inside of the frame and sometimes case rims would catch. The edge of the the grip frame on the left side stands proud of the cylinder frame. The gun timing functions well so I have not checked the internals.
I have a Bisley New Vaquero to compare it with. I had a 25 year old Uberti that seemed about the same. I have had two 10 year old Uberti s that seemed a little better.

 

[CraigC]

I've got dozens of each and always considered the Uberti's a step up in fit & finish compared to Ruger. Same for the Pietta guns of the last 10yrs or so.

 

[sobrbiker883]

I got a Cimmaron Pistolero (PPP45) last month as my first foray into SAA/Clones.
For $432 shipped I am tickled.
I did tear it down and stoned all edges/burrs, bought a reduced mainspring from EMF, and a Uberti cylinder pin from VTI (with the rounded “safety” grooves all the way around the pin-I didn’t like at all the small notches Pietta uses).
Only “issue” I’ve fixed was the cylinder pin release button left a corner still in the way of pin when fully depressed and easily taken care of.
The cylinders are all .452/.453 (don’t have pin gauges) but more consistent than any Ruger I’ve had. I haven’t slugged bore yet or done load development on paper but it seems more accurate than I am (I’m not well versed in revos-hence the purchase).
I did some fitting of wood to frame/trigger guard on grips but it was by no means bad as receiver.
Solid 4-click true love for the money as far as I’m concerned.

 

[wgf]

CraigC’s sample size is much larger than mine. I bought mine new off Gunbroker. If I had seen it in person I still would have bought it. There was nothing a little fine tuning could not fix. I am not bashing Uberti or Pietta. I think a comparable Ruger would have been $200 more. I like my gun and I am not sorry I bought it.

 

[commygun]

Just bought a 7.5" Cimarron Frontier in .357. Haven't shot it yet but, gad, it is flat beautiful. Where else do you get a gun these days that looks like that for under $600?

 

[James K2020]

My 2 cents- have several Cimarrons, 2 Vaqueros, 1 EMF GW, and one Taylors.

The El Patron Competition is the most impressive Uberti in fit and finish. Hand-tuned by Uberti factory in Brescia. Very slick.

The Cimarron Open Tops are very nice but have that perceived wedge/base pin gap issue that many complain about but doesn't really bother me. I add the split washer into the bottom of the pin receiving hole. Both work fine and very accurate. Have 2 different length barrels for each.
The 1875 Outlaw came with 2 .45 cylinders. Mainly use the ACP. Had to tinker and clean burrs on it and the Taylors 1873 but fun to shoot.

The EMF is a Pietta Gambler Royal and has excellent fit and finish and does have the distinct 4 clicks. Handles .357s really well especially for a 4 3/4" barrel and the screws never come loose- unlike most of the Ubertis. Very well made, IMO.

The Vaqueros are also excellent in fit and finish- very stout and can't see them ever being a problem. They don't work like a Colt but were never intended to imitate them, only in looks.

I would purchase another GW if I ran across the right one like maybe the Californian or Alchemist 2. EMF headquarters is in Santa Ana, CA a 10-minute drive from my house. The gunsmith there is quite nice and helpful. He changed out my soft main spring for a stiffer one at the counter-no charge.

Gambler Royal

 

[James K2020]

Royal should have an 'e'.....Royale.

 

[Tallinar]

Picked up this new Cimarron Frontier today from my FFL. Here are some out of the box pictures and initial impressions.

Bluing looks top notch. Case coloring is great. I was surprised by how light it is compared to all of my .45 Colt New Vaqueros. Been a long time since I've even held an SAA reproduction, and don't think I'd ever handled a 7.5" one in my life (only Vaq/New Vaq/Blackhawks). Balance is great -- everything I expected it to be.




Cylinder gap is not perfect, but acceptable. Lock up is excellent.



There is some definite grittiness that can be felt where the hand contacts the frame. When the hammer is cocked all the way back with the cylinder out, one most depress the hand manually to unlock the hammer. Minor annoyance, but highlights the grittiness. Frame appears to be cast (?) and is a little rough is this area. I expect this to break in just fine though (a drop of Ballistol in this area has already improved things immensely). I don't plan to do anything with it.






Pin protrusion looks good.




Markings are fairly minimal and non-obtrusive.





Barrel and front sight appear to visibly be aligned well. The rear sight is cut well.

Trigger is a bit stiff, but workable. Hopefully a little break in will do it well. May be worth having some work done on this one. Hammer pull tension feels just right, minus the felt grittiness mentioned above.



All in all, seems like a quality firearm that is going to break in just fine. Will update ya'll when I've had a chance to shoot it.

 

[ontarget]

Awesome. I love a good SAA clone. I passed on a GW some time back and wished I hadn't. I do love my El Patrons though.

 

[Tallinar]

As I keep cycling the action, I do think the grittiness issue with the hand is going to need some attention, but it isn’t enough to dissuade me from the gun itself.

On another note, I was surprised to realize today that the SAA has an offset trigger. I’m too used to Rugers I guess. Never thought about this, but I guess it’s a thing.

 

[Tallinar]

As I sit and fondle this gun further, I start to notice other blemishes. There are a lot of very sharp surfaces, as if little attention was paid to deburring many of the surfaces. I also notice other casting imperfections on the frame — none of these things are major, and none would really catch your eye from just casually examining the gun.

Sharp edges can be found on the edges of the hammer, the loading gate area, the ejector rod, cylinder pin, etc. The outside of the forcing cone area by the cylinder is VERY sharp, and tears up cleaning patches. The trigger and trigger guard aren’t too bad. For the most part, any surface that your fingers would normally be touching during operation (the hammer tip, trigger, grip frame, cylinder) has clearly received some attention.

Again, none of this is off-putting for the price. Seems like a gunsmith who knew what he was doing could make this thing sing with an hour or two of work.

I will say that it gives me a greater appreciation for some of the things I’ve taken for granted on my Rugers. Never encountered a sharp surface on my Vaqueros or Blackhawks.

Forgive the little flecks of cleaning patch on these pictures — especially the last. But it does give you an idea of how those sharp edges tear them up.

 

[Tallinar]

Was able to get to the indoor range and test fire today. Fired 51 of my 250 gr RNFP 8.5 gr Unique handloads.

After firing the first round, I immediately appreciated how my 7.5" Blackhawk does a good job soaking up recoil. These rounds aren't quite "full power" when compared to historical .45 Colt original black powder standards, but they are somewhat close, and nothing to sneeze at. If I were to shoot this gun in cowboy action, I would probably be compelled to explore a lighter, 200 grain load (something I've always resisted doing, favoring 250 grain loads, as all my fixed sight .45's have always preferred this weight). I found that the sharp edges on the thin trigger can be downright painful under recoil. This, too, makes me appreciate the wider trigger I've enjoyed on all of my Rugers.

After 30 rounds or so, one of the screws on the frame needed about an 8th of a turn of tightening. Everything else stayed put pretty good.

All primer strikes were full and crisp.

After firing a few cylinders, I was more or less acclimated to the trigger and the recoil, and found that I was able to maintain about a tight group at point of aim at 7 yards, shooting off-hand, 2-handed. This thing seems to be dead-on accurate with 250 grain loads, if I do my part. Here's my best group -- the last one I fired of the day.



All in all, a good first experience. A little work on this trigger and the hand, and I think this thing will be a tremendous shooter.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Tallinar-that shoots nice! My Pistolero is basically a Frontier with brass guard and backstrap. I stoned all those sharp and such myself. If I were you I’d definitely be looking at cleaning up hand slot and while I expect some tooling marks and sharp edges at the price point they are, the broken edge in the last pic in post 23
is more that something that needs a “little smoothing out” and would be borderline unacceptable to me.
I’d email those pics to Cimarron and see what they say.

But it does seem to shoot well!