EMF Great Western II vs. Cimarron Frontier - Differences?

[Tallinar]

I'm curious to hear some other opinions. @CraigC, is this on par with your experience with Pietta-made guns?

I'm ultimately pretty happy with this purchase. Just curious if this is representative of others' experience.

If I'm to have any work done to this gun, I'd plan to pay a gunsmith to do it. I had already done some research on Cimarron's (allegedly non-existent) customer service/repair. I bought this gun banking on Pietta's reputation, not Cimarron's.

 

[CraigC]

I don't normally these those kinds of "features" on their guns, no. They usually do better than that but they may be having issues with staffing due to COVID. Italy was particularly hard hit but I've bought several new ones and have not found there to be a difference.

 

[wgf]

I'm curious to hear some other opinions. @CraigC, is this on par with your experience with Pietta-made guns?

I'm ultimately pretty happy with this purchase. Just curious if this is representative of others' experience.

If I'm to have any work done to this gun, I'd plan to pay a gunsmith to do it. I had already done some research on Cimarron's (allegedly non-existent) customer service/repair. I bought this gun banking on Pietta's reputation, not Cimarron's.

Check out duelist1954 on utube. He has made a many videos on these Italian guns. There is one on cleaning up the inside of a Pietta 1851 that would show you how to do it yourself. I did mine with the stones that come with a three piece knife sharpening kit, then touch up with cold blue. It’s very easy to do and you will learn a lot about how the gun works.

 

[Tallinar]

Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe I will try my hand at resolving some of these things myself. If I can get it detail stripped without making a fool of myself, I should be able to do some light polishing of the hammer and hand to at least remove that grittiness. Then I'll feel like a real gunsmith.

 

[Tallball]

That is not "normal", or at least it's not something I've seen before.

My Uberti is waay smoother than that, and it was the cheapest model. I don't think I've seen one like that at the LGS, either.

NBD if you can just smooth it out. The design itself has been sound for the past 150 years or so.

 

[Tallinar]

Well, now I am concerned.

Prior to shooting, I noticed the cylinder locked up nice and tight. When it was at full cock, or when the hammer was released, the cylinder did not rotate or shake at all. Now that I am home and re-examining it, when the hammer is cocked, there is about 3-5 degrees of shake/play if one tries to manually rotate the cylinder backwards. The bolt can be seen depressing slightly.

When the hammer is down and the trigger is either depressed (as if just fired) or at rest, the cylinder -- again -- appears to be prevented from rotating forward at all, but it can be rotated by hand backward almost half a chamber! This feels concerning. Unless it is by chance a normal function of an SAA and I just never thought to look at it. It seems like the bolt doesn't provide sufficient resistance to rearward rotation.

Issues occur on all chambers.

I have re-verified that all screws are tightened.

I'm trying hard to remain optimistic. Should I be concerned at this point?

Again, had no issues firing it.

Also, if it matters, I already have these roll marks on the cylinder notches. This is from just todays shooting, and casually (carefully) working the action at home to get familiar with it.

I also didn't notice it until taking that photo, but there are some pretty pronounced machining marks in each notch.

 

[wgf]

Seeing your last post. I think your guns issues are more than just fine tuning. I would try factory customer service.

 

[Tallinar]

Seeing your last post. I think your guns issues are more than just fine tuning. I would try factory customer service.

Yup. I called Cimarron customer service. Spoke to a nice gentleman who said he would email me RMA instructions. We’ll see how this goes..

Comparing the cylinder notches on this thing to any of my other revolvers, it seems there is not enough material to form a “lip” to prevent backwards rotation on this thing. I am wondering if these dings did not exist prior to me firing it today. I wonder if the simple force of recoil created stress on what little lip there was, enough to ding it up and now provide no lip at all? There’s just nothing there for the bolt to hold onto. I can’t see how recoil could do this though, as the markings are clearly rotation-related.

Frustrating. I was trying to hard to like this thing. Now I expect/fear I’m just in for an RMA roller coaster.

Here’s a cylinder notch on this gun as compared to my Blackhawk (which has seen far, far more action). Stark contrast.





As a closer comparison, here is my .45 Colt New Vaquero, which has more similar exterior cylinder dimensions to the SAA than the Blackhawk:

 

[.45Coltguy]

I just bought a 45 Colt / 45 ACP Pietta Great Western II. It is a 4 click action. Over all the fit and finish is not on par with Ruger Vaqueros, but the functionality is good and getting better. Check out the duelist 1954 channel video on cleaning up a Pietta 1851. That video pretty much describes the condition of my gun. Mine is timed perfectly and locks up tight for firing. I am working on the sharp edges and adjusting the sights. The 45 Colt targets are on the left, 45 ACP on the right. Gun was fired with two hands standing at 10 yards. 2nd target without the gun was fired after filing down the front sight and painting the back of the sight blade gold. I think the groups will tighten up as I get used to the sights. I like mine

Tallinar, I have this exact revolver that wgf has. Mine doesn't have the imperfections you're pointing out on yours. I've had it for about 2 years. Sorry to hear of this and hopefully Pietta will take care of this. They are very good shooters to be sure. Best of luck with this.

 

[Tallinar]

Could I ask one of you to take a picture of the frame where the hand protrudes on one of your Pietta SAA’s? I’m interested to see if the frame isn’t even cut fully for the hand on this. I notice that my Rugers are squared off clean, while this has a rounded/jagged edge. I wonder if that’s part of what inhibits the hand movement. Trying to determine if this is standard or an obvious manufacturing flaw. Just don’t have any other SAA’s to compare to.

Here again is a comparison with a (dirty) New Vaquero.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Tallinar, your Pietta is pretty much like mine was. My frame edges are good as is my barrel /forcing cone area but my biggest problem was the hand slot not being open enough for the hand to fully contact the ratchet. I took care of that and replaced the hand as well as the bolt. The original bolt had a "much too generous" return bevel which made my particular setup impossible. The headspace was too tight so you can see some breach "correction".
Your timing is late which is obvious from the movement of material into the locking notch. This is what is causing your lock-up problems because the bolt can't fully enter the notch. The bolt should be fully on the approach ( or the cylinder if there isn't an approach) before entering the notch. The notch edges should be sharp, not rounded.










Mike

 

[45 Dragoon]

BTW, my Pietta was made in 2020.

After all the corrections, I did a little tune- up . . . including a "keeper notch" at the end of the shortened (cause they're too long!) base pin so it will stay in the frame when removing the cylinder. All new action springs, interference pins, hammer shims, my hand spring and pushrod, bolt block, action stop, action shield, bushing shimed for "0" endshake, ejector rod tapered for chamber mouth protection. Also added a 45acp cylinder. Screws are now prettier and the frame is packed with Mobil1. About a 3 3/4 lb. hammer draw and a 2 1/2 lb trigger pull.





Mike

 

[Tallinar]

Thank you, @45 Dragoon.

I admit that some of this is over my head, but I think I am mostly following. You mention timing (a subject I am a little green on). I read this explanation of timing in an old THR post here, which seemed to match what I am witnessing: "If the timing is off and the cylinder fails to be unlocked before the action starts to rotate the cylinder either the action will simply jam and not function, or there'll be a "hard spot" in the trigger pull. This can also damage the cylinder locking notches and the locking bolt. This can cause metal to be pulled up out of the locking notches, ruining the cylinder if it goes too far."

Does this description align with what you're describing?

Also, you mention the "much too generous" return bevel on the bolt. I'm not sure I know what you're referring to, but I did find the shape of the bolt to be oddly sloped. But again, I don't really have anything to compare to, as I only have Rugers to compare to. Here's a picture of it.

Do you think my cylinder is effectively ruined at this point? It's discouraging to see so much metal moved after firing literally only 50 rounds.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Tallinar, the timing for "bolt drop" is what I was talking about ( dropping in the approach . .). Your post above is describing late bolt "pickup". The "hard spot" would be in the "hammer draw" not trigger pull. The picture of your cyl notches shows the peening that happens from late drop. That's what is hindering lockup. The mark on the other side of the notch is what would come from your description of late "pickup" ( bolt not fully out of the notch before cyl rotation) but yours could be from throw-by (over rotation).

The return bevel is on the top of the left bolt arm. It allows the transition surface for the cam to push the arm to the side as the hammer falls. I'll post a picture later. Your picture of the bolt head looks fine. Your cylinder can be corrected, you may do best by letting Cimarron fix or replace under warranty.

Mike

 

[.45Coltguy]

Excellent posts 45 Dragoon. Thinking that Tallinar needs to contact Cimarron for some warranty work also. Hate to see that on a new revolver.

 

[Tallinar]

Brief update. I got in touch with Cimarron. I spoke to a customer service fellow who sent me an email with an RMA, prepaid shipping label, and instructions to package and ship to an FFL/gunsmith in Texas who does their warranty repair work.

Their RMA system certainly feels a bit bulky and out-dated. As I've read elsewhere, they are very particular about maintaining the original box and all paperwork, but so far I've been pleased with the level of responsiveness and personableness. You can definitely tell you aren't dealing with a big box outfit. This can have its pros and cons. We'll have to wait and see.

Could be months before I get the gun back, but I have other stuff to shoot in the meantime. I'll just have to be patient like folks had to be in the old days.

So far so good.

 

[James K2020]

I've dealt with Bobby in Cimarron's customer service a few times. He's been helpful in the past. They should be responsive to your issues.

 

[film495]

the occasional one that has some issues, IMHO - keeps the costs down per firearm. kind of a hassle, but a lot of the SAA clones seem really nice to me at the price point they seem to retail at. eventually I'll pick one up in .357 just because, and hopefully it will be a gaudy color case hardened one, that makes a BBQ gun for the range, that is just fun to get out and enjoy shooting targets with it. shooting a revolver single action, has a certain charm to it, even if it is double and single action. one dedicated to single action, on the list.

 

[Tallinar]

Update:

I received the revolver back from Cimarron's gunsmith a few days ago -- so about 5-6 weeks after I originally shipped it out.

The gunsmith's note in the box indicated that he replaced the bolt and re-timed the revolver, and I do notice that the lock up is certainly better than it had been. However, the metal on the cylinder notches is so peened (apparently owing to damage done from the previous, faulty bolt), that on some chambers, the cylinder can still be rocked back and forth very easily, bringing the gun out of battery.

In addition to this, the finish on the cylinder has new marring on it that was not present at the time I shipped it back. I am not overly concerned with this, as it's purely cosmetic, but it is frustrating to see finish damage occur during repair. The marks are such that it appear vertically, as though made by a vice or something. Not sure, and I'm not really too concerned about it. I suppose it's possible that some of it existed prior, but as I look through pictures I took prior to shipping, I can't find it. I had the gun for only a couple days before shipping it back, and during that time didn't holster it, etc.

As it stands, I am not confident that the gun is in a safe condition to shoot, as the cylinder can too easily be taken out of battery due to insufficient lock up. I understand that a little play in a cylinder is not an issue, but this is more than just a little wobble -- the bolt is able to actually jump out of the cylinder notch on certain chambers.

I reached out to Bobby to report my findings. He called me a couple days later and sent me instructions and a new RMA form to return it back to the gunsmith again. I noted the issue of finish damage, but more importantly, I drew attention to how mangled the cylinder notches are, due to the peening effect of the presumably faulty bolt. I guess I would have assumed the gunsmith would have elected to just replace the cylinder entirely.

So now I have it packaged up again and ready to go out tomorrow.

We'll see how it turns out. I'm a little nervous at this point that the gunsmith will just be offended by my critique of his work, and this process will only get more painful. But who knows. I'm withholding judgment until the outcome.

 

[ontarget]

I would hope that with such a low round count they would replace the marred cylinder. After all, the damage was due to a factory defect to begin with.

 

[CraigC]

Jesus, look at those bolt notches!!! I think they need to replace the gun, write you a formal letter of apology and upgrade your grips for free.

 

[James K2020]

Can see why the bolt slips. Looks like the bolt wouldn't fully recess when the cylinder turned.

 

[StrawHat]

Colt SAA revolvers, regardless of maker, should be sold with a good screwdriver set. If you shoot them, you will need to tighten the screws. This was noted in 1873 and nothing has changed.

Kevin

 

[Y-T71]

@Tallinar, wondering if you have any updates after your revolvers 2nd trip back to the gunsmith?

 

[Tallinar]

@Tallinar, wondering if you have any updates after your revolvers 2nd trip back to the gunsmith?

Hi there. The gun has been back with the warranty gunsmith since October 21, and I have heard no update. I just send the customer service fellow an email asking for an update. Very disappointing.