End muzzleloading seasons?

[bosshoff]

Does anyone else think that we should end muzzleloading seasons altogether? Just a few things to think about, before I get "lit up." The original intent of the seasons was to allow "purists" with exceptional skill levels and cruder firearms to have a chance at harvesting an animal. The weaponry is no longer crude, and right on par with cenetrbore rifles. Rifled barrels, sabots, powder pellets, disc firing, shotgun primers, sealed breaches, scopes, etc. This is far cry from the flintlock models that the seasons were created for. We do not allow bowhunters to use crossbows for the same reasons. (In my home state of Illinois, only the disabled may bowhunt with a crossbow) Bow hunting takes a physical skill, wheter you are using a recurve, or a compound bow. You still need to have skills enough to close the distance with your quary to under 40 yards. Muzzle loadier hunting, used to embody this. The performance of a round ball, with a cotton patch, loose powder etc., left a lot to be desired. I would guess that shots over 80 yards were the exception, rather than the rule. Now the balistics of the high end guns shooting .50 cal bullets allows shots over 200 yards, with a ton of knock-down power.
Something else for the tin foil hat crew to contemplate, how long before there is a push (based on the argument that Muzzle Loader performance = Centerfire performance) to make all hunting season rifles muzzleloading only? I can just see it now, muzzleloaders are safer because the bullets don't go as far. Why wouldn't you want this in Northen Wisconsin? Fair chase is needing "one shot" only to take an animal. Why would a hunter worth his salt need to take a "follow-up" shot?
Personally, I don't think anything is going to happen to end the seasons. The communities that rely on the extra revenue brought in from out of state folk hunting Elk, Deer, and Antelope will never let the tap be turned off. I would like to see the regulations change to allow only "traditional" muzzle loaders only. What "traditional" would entail would have to be figured out. (I would say anything that was not around prior to 1900, is off of the table.)

 

[del4]

I'm in agreement. I was just never brave enough to admit it .

Too many companies have a lot invested in in-line muzzle loading for it to go away though. It is still a free country.

Compound bows have a big advantage over recurve or long bows IMHO.

One good thing about in-line muzzle loaders is that you can buy them without anyone knowing you bought it.

 

[smokemaker]

I'm not sure that the very best muzzleloaders in the world are "right on par" with a good centerfire rifles. I shoot muzzleloaders about 95% of the time,and have gone through about 3 pounds of various powders in the last year. I have a little experience. I just don't think every Tom, Dick and Harry is capable of 200 yard shots with the ML that they usually neglect until ML season. The guys who can make 200 yard shots do a lot of practicing. I've shot a breech plug to uselessness in my Omega, and still won't attempt a 200 yard shot. (I have since replaced the breechplug, and it wasn't 150 grain charges that tore it up, (I don't shoot 150 grains loads, as 130 shoots much better.) I'm convinced that 209 primers are doing a lot of gas cutting.
And I do shoot patched roundballs, not just inlines. I hunt that same way with my inline that I do with my GPR.

I guess I'm not blasting you, but please don't go perpetuating the myth of muzzleloader power.

 

[bosshoff]

Hey Smokemaker, you obviously have a ton more experience with muzzleloaders than I do. One thing I noted was you said:

"...please don't go perpetuating the myth of muzzleloader power."

The only experience I have had with the power of muzzle loaders is what I have heard claimed on the various hunting shows, and watching shows where muzzle loaderswere used. More often than not on the hunting programs, the Whitetail gets "put right on the mat" with a muzzle loader.

Just remember, you can always use a muzzleloader to hunt during the regular rifle season.

I am not trying to be an instigator here, just inspire some discourse on the subject.

 

[dakotasin]

in s.d., in order to hunt w/ a muzzleloader, the gun must actually be a (mostly) primitive type. meaning no scopes - though i know that pyrodex is legal.

anyway, why end the season? why not just have your state write out the rules so that they follow in the spirit of what muzzleloading season is s'posed to (ie, a primitive weapons season).

 

[smokemaker]

I actually do use a muzzleloader during regular season, and would gladly go back to roundballs only for muzzleloader season if New York's DEC so decreed. The last two deer I've shot with a ML went down like they were pole-axed. But so did the last deer I shot with a shotgun using saboted slugs through a rifled barrel. Is anyone out there touting a slug gun as a centerfire rifle? And some of the higher performance saboted slug rounds can outperform the average ML load.

The gun magazines and hunting shows are by and large advertisements for products the manufacturers give to the gunwriters to test. No wonder they love the "extreme power" of the modern muzzleloader. Of course, T/C, Knight and the others love to gloat about the power that they can produce. (I think back to the Encore ad stating "power equal to a 7mm Mag out to 200 yards" or some such nonsense)

I'm not trying to bash you either, just bringing some, well, more correct information to the table.

 

[bosshoff]

Dakotasin, I am not looking to get ANY hunting season cancelled! It also would be a very grey pool to swim in to be the one tasked with writing the regulations as to what is allowed, and not allowed.
As to the power of the 12 gauge, I think people forget just how powerful a 12 guage load can be. I personally think this is due to the "skeet crowd" shooting light loads of birdshot. Shooting little clay pidgeons at 50 yards, and missing, kind of makes you forget how devastating a shot gun can be.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I'm one of the "tin hat" crowd on this one.

Many young guys I know in VA no longer buy a rifle. Doesn't make sense for them. They can get a smoke pole and a pointy stick and hunt for MONTHS verse the 2 weeks my home county allows for rifle season.

I think in a few years they will take rifle season away all together since they will be able to say that the smoke poles and stick guys took all the deer needed. Also, will take away many of the pro gun voters as these young men grow up without a rifle in the house.

If it was all about sport why isn't there a special protected handgun season?

Maybe I'm paraniod but I think they are eating away at our base here.

 

[Atticus]

I understand your point ...but disagree to a point. Perhaps the original intent was to allow purists to hunt, but that was before there were 6 billion whitetails running around. Hunting opportunities have expanded in an effort to decrease that surplus. Secondly, the average muzzleloader hunter ( or crossbow hunter) is not all that proficient....even with a "new and improved supermag 50 cal". Generally it's still a one shot/miss affair. I use a crossbow quite alot, which is legal in Ohio for everyone. An arrow is an arrow. The effective range is not much greater than a compound bow and a clean kill still requires close shots, and a clear shooting path. A branch or brush deflects a bolt just as it does an arrow. Every deer I've taken with a crossbow has been from within 10 yards. Granted, it doesn't require the same strengths or skills of longbow hunting, but it does bring a boatload of new hunters onto the scene, and I think that's good.

 

[Rembrandt]

Your premise is flawed...in-line muzzleloaders have been around since the 17th century. They did not catch on until the mid 1980's when Tony Knight (a machinist/gun smith) brought the concept back by mixing the design with modern stocks, sights, and triggers.

From a ballistic standpoint, it is a mistake to equate these with modern centerfire rifles. A 7mm bullet can travel nearly 7 miles....blackpowder ballistics are more comparable to centerfire straight walled pistol ammo or shotgun slugs.

Hunters and shooters who segregate the sport because of equpment biases do more harm than good. Condoning an end to muzzleloader season because someone uses different equipment isn't much different than the anti-hunting activist agenda. Both are trying to limit hunting because it doesn't suit their perception. Hunters and shooters get much more done working together than working against each other....the problem isn't the technology, it's your own biases you have trouble dealing with.

 

[JohnKSa]

Muzzle-loading seasons exist and muzzle-loaders enjoy special privileges because of the handicaps that muzzle-loaders have.

No one's suggesting the muzzle-loading hunting be curtailed. It's just that as improved muzzle-loading technology narrows the capability gap between normal firearms and front-stuffers, it may not make sense to continue to provide special privileges because of handicaps that no longer exist. (Or are much less pronounced.)

After all, we don't have pistol hunting seasons, single shot rifle hunting seasons, straight-walled cartridge hunting seasons, iron sight only hunting seasons...

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Don't you still pretty much have just one shot with an in-line muzzleloader?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Bosshoff,

You bring some very valid points to the table and I understand your premiss.

When I hunt with a muzzle loader I do it with a .54 CAL GPR or plug on my GPH barrel(this is a traditional side lock gun) so I can shoot lead conicals or minie balls. I can kill a deer or an elk at 100yrds if the conditions are right. In the State of Colorado it is illegal to use sabots, powder pellets or scopes and I think that is a good thing because or ML seasons are during the rut when you can call elk in close.

However, I do not believe for a minute after having shot various inline ML's that they are in any way shape or form the equivlant of a center fire repeater. They just aren't that good. And I can go buy a long range .45 replica sharps ML that shoots as flat and as accurate as any inline modern gun. In fact I can buy an authentic or replica inline ML that was designed in the early 1800's and use an authentic style scope on it.

Inlines give two advatages over a traditional sidelock flint or precusion gun.

1. With SOME of the ignition systems they are more impervious to wet weather. A side lock is a nightmare in drizzly conditions without the right gear.A closed breach inline will function MUCH of the time in wet weather but not always.

2. The ability to use modern optics does extend the range of these rifle for some shooters. The main thing I've noticed that it does is give people false confidence and cause them to wound more game.

With that being said we as hunters must stick together. Divided we fall. I can't tell you how many times I've been lectured by bird hunters on the evils of big game hunting or by "meat" hunters on the evils of "trophy" hunting or how fly fishing is the sport of kings and spinner bait is for white trash or waterfoul hunters are superior to uplanders or how bowhunters are better than ML hunters and how bow hunters get in the way during ML season or that ML hunters just wound game and that only a modern rifle can provide a clean ethical kill.

All of which is B.S. it's all hunting and it's all good and we need to suport one another. Because all this kind of bickering does is weaken the cause as a whole.

In fact I'd suggest you spend the next season with a muzzle loader in hand than come back and tell me what a huge advatage you had because you used an inline over a sidelock. I'd be willing to bet you'd have a whole attitude after giving it a go once or twice.

I don't know if you guys have noticed this but I try and get out and do it all. I bow hunt, Rifle hunt with all kinds of different equipment from the most modern scoped rigs to iron sighted lever guns, I muzzle loader hunt and have used everything from an Encore .50 to a traditional 1800's civil war Enfield .58. I even do a bit of blade hunting with knives and spears.

I enjoy it all and have the background and experience to say that every weapon has it's pluses and minuses and each has it's own unique challenges and until you've tried it for yourself there is no way to know what those unique challenges and limitations are.

 

[ronbwolf]

Huntin' is huntin'. more seasons the better. I have an in-line, and a caplock, never hunted with them yet (though retiring this July and might now) but I have them, Just so I can. Try something new instead of bemoaning something you don't do, just MHO.

 

[flatdog]

Bosshoff:

The problem I have is who gets to decide what is pure and what is an exceptional level of skill.

Theses are both relative terms and well meaning people will differ on the qualifications. Bitter arguments have erupted trying to sort out those very things.

On another note. Most people don't hunt and know nothing of it's mysteries. We must support each other in order for hunting in its many forms and methods to continue and thrive.

flatdog

 

[Lonestar.45]

No way should they do away with muzzleloader season. That's a step backwards, if you ask me. Hunters don't need to go around lobbying for the abolishment of certain seasons, it's contradictory to our cause. If the concern is that muzzleloaders are getting too hi-tech and on par with centerfire rifles, there's a lot easier ways to remedy that situation than doing away with the season.

Make "iron sights only" rules, or "no inlines" rules, or whatever. Easy as that. The inline crowd can still hunt with them in rifle season, but not the special muzzleloader season. Problem solved.

 

[bosshoff]

Hey Loanstar:

"No way should they do away with muzzleloader season. That's a step backwards, if you ask me. "

Who said to do AWAY with anything?

I said:
"I would like to see the regulations change to allow only "traditional" muzzle loaders only. What "traditional" would entail would have to be figured out. (I would say anything that was not around prior to 1900, is off of the table.)"

 

[redneck2]

At least here

the muzzleloader season is after firearms (shotgun/pistol/muzzleloader are legal). I don't know the actual numbers, but I suspect the number of deer taken with muzzleloaders is 10% of what is taken during firearms season

I'd agree with most of the others, in that we can't start writing regulations for what we think is right. Pretty soon, somebody else will write rules around that they think is right, and it may be far different from what you want.

Shotgun used to mean slugs. Now we can shoot sabots that exceed .45-70 performance. Are you going to outlaw rifled barrels and sabots?

In Indiana, you can use any pistol caliber bigger than .38 sp. Some guys are buying single shots in .308, etc. and using them, but a .308 rifle is illegal. Make sense?? Well, no. But at least the DNR hasn't stepped in yet and tried to over-regulate. In the final analysis, the number of animals taken with the rifle caliber pistols is far less than 1%

 

[Matt G]

I find myself agreeing almost word for word with H&Hhunter, here.

Texas, like Colorado, disallows inlines for the muzzleloader-only season. . .

Or so I thought! It used to, I believe. Huh. I just went to the Texas Parks and Wildlife website and looked at the specific hunting regulations on muzzleloaders, and found only this:

Muzzleloader: Any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle. Note: A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader.

Interesting. That looks to me like inlines are now allowed. Maybe. Depends upon what one means by "loaded only through the muzzle." I notice that scopes are not disallowed. I really don't have a problem with that. Some scopes were in use back when, too, and I don't see any reason to disallow older folk whose eyes are deteriorating from hunting with primitive arms.

Even where only the primitive firearms are allowed in ML-only seasons, one can, of course, use inlines and scoped muzzleloaders during the general rifle seasons.


A coupla years back, I really had the hots for a Lyman Great Plains muzzleloader, in .54 caliber, with doubleset triggers and the excellent Lyman sight. Almost bought one, but financial issues got in the way. I liked that the rifle could shoot about as well as I could with iron sights at 100 yards, and could drop large elk, and yet was utterly authentic as a primative arm. Plus, they look and feel dandy. Hey, if I'm gonna go muzzleloader, why would I want want to those silly inline jobs? But to each his own. I don't understand XP100 and Contender hunters who feel that they're "handgun hunting," either.

 

[Rembrandt]

Quote Bosshoff : "Who said to do AWAY with anything?"

I believe the answer to your question....was you.

Title of Thread started by Bosshoff: "End muzzleloading seasons?"

Quote Bosshoff: "Does anyone else think that we should end muzzleloading seasons altogether?"

 

[scout26]

If it was all about sport why isn't there a special protected handgun season?

Here in the People's Republik of Illinois, we have (two) Shotgun seasons (3 day weekend before T-day, 4 day weekend after T-day), a muzzleloader (basically anything that can't be loaded from the breech end) season (second weekend in Dec) and a Handgun season (.30 cal and larger, min 4" barrel and 500 ft lbs at the muzzle and no semi-autos.) in mid Jan. Archery season is 1 Oct through the day before Handgun season, except during go-bang seasons.

Previously, you could use a muzzleloader during shotgun season. Last year (2003) the IDNR loosened up the rules and you could use Shotgun, muzzleloader or Handgun during shotgun season. IIRC, this last year (2004) you could use any legal firearm during any firearm season, simply because their are waaaaay to many deer in Illinois. Landowners who had unfilled tags from the November shotgun seasons were told their tags were still valid and encouraged to go back out and fill those tags in Jan !!!!!

 

[Art Eatman]

I may have missed it if anybody else has brought it up, but the main reason to have separate seasons has little to with the particular type of weapon.

It's about holding down the number of hunters "out there" at any one time. It also has to do with the different styles/needs of the users of the various weapons.

Think about the guys who took up archery or muzzle-loaders to have the earlier seasons, and in some places, a bit longer season. If successful, they're not back out in the woods for rifle season (as a function of limits).

Generally, the m-l and archery folks aren't into walking across country in the more open areas. They're more into ambush. So, you mix them all together and some archer gets bent out of shape when some walker(s) messes up his deal. Same for an m-l guy who's waited for hours for Bambi, and here comes some Sneaky Snake ambling along...

Overcrowded hunting country is a bummer. BTDT.

Art

 

[Kingcreek]

Part of the problem lies in the Illinois seasons as they are now structured. bosshoff makes some good points that might not be valid in other states. IL has no rifle season for deer. Lots of people no longer hunt with slug shotguns because of the distance advantage of the MLs and you only see synthetic, scoped, and sabots . High-tech MLs with scopes and such should be allowed during the regular shotgun season and same for the guy that wants to shoot his with a handgun. If we have to have a seperate ML season, should be primitive only. and all those different weekends are a pain for us bowhunters. screws up the deer for our bowhunting. There are so many orange people out on those same few days that I refuse to hunt anywhere but my own farmland during the firearm season. I wish they would leave it open for 10 days straight instead of the weekends.
My chances of killing deer with the bow go down dramatically after the first firearm season. especially with the bucks, they go almost completely nocturnal and disappear form the more pressured areas.

 

[bosshoff]

Rembrandt

Check out the last paragraph in my post:

"I would like to see the regulations change to allow only "traditional" muzzle loaders only. What "traditional" would entail would have to be figured out. (I would say anything that was not around prior to 1900, is off of the table.)"

I guess I could have titled my post a little differently, maybe "Do you think we should end the way current muzzle loading seasons are set up, or just open them up to everything? (rifle, shotgun, handgun)?" I'll admit, I tried to make it "catchy" so people would read the post.

I am NOT on some crusade, I thought it would make for an interesting post and or discussion.

 

[stevelyn]

I think it's a meaningless, superficial debate (sidelock vs inline, pellets vs granular powder, compound vs traditional longbow/recurve vs crossbow) that serves no other purpose than to drive a wedge between different disciplines of hunters by getting them to focus on each other's equipment. Hunters who otherwise have a single-minded purpose...............the management and well being of our sustainable wildlife resources.