Soybomb wrote:
These are people who have years of eduation and experience in the function of the body and treating people with gun shot wounds and examining people that didn't survive their gun shot wounds.. We need large amounts of data analyzed by people who know what they're looking at. So far the police in the US don't seem to be complaining.
Whatever, you stick with your doctors I’ll stick with the guys that shoot people for real
Last time I checked being a doctor does not qualify you as a ballistics expert… or even more importantly, a gunfighter.
I know doctors that can’t even tell the difference between calibers. A good friend of my family does heart transplants, the guy is a darn genius. What’s that got to do with on the street efficiency of one caliber or another?
We can discuss until the end of ages, what doctors and what guys shooting gelatin have to say. Real, cold facts? Those you don’t argue, you simply pick them and accept them, like it or not, and then you can study why it worked ( or not) but you don’t get to change the fact of what happened, just try to find a logical explanation for it.
All the experts say its the size of the hole that makes the difference, so why when the diameter of the hole increases nearly 30% and the volume of the wound increases (lets say a 14" wound tract which is 5.4 cubic inches for the 9mm round and 8.9 cubic inches for the .45) far more do you feel the 10% difference in kinetic energy of the round is responsible for the better stopping?
mmm... no, I think that you have a terribly wrong impression of what happens when people get shot. To you, its all about the diameter of the hole and the depth. You seem to ignore the importance of how that hole was made in the first place.
Surgically cutting a narrow hole that imitates the permanent cavity of a 45 Hardball round does NOT equal to actually getting shot with such caliber. The permanent cavity is just part of the equation, there’s also crushing of bones and hydraulic shock to consider, along with the temporary cavity and what organs got affected by it. An important nervous center getting caught within the temporary cavity area of influence will likely shock the person enough to put him down, out of the fight or unconscious. Him bleeding to death afterwards is merely anecdotal.
Say, a JHP +P 9mm that expands and transfers all of its energy, creating a hydraulic shock that happened to affect some main artery. The blood pressure in that “hose” goes up a LOT for a fraction of a second and God only knows what it may affect. If it’s a main artery that connects to the brain, that person will likely go down unconscious, or he will at least be stunned for sure.
That’s why I don’t trust the wound profile drawings by Falkner, according to those drawings 45 ACP, even 7,62x51 are almost useless, with a relatively small permanent cavity, the temporary cavity being completely ignored, and that’s’ simply wrong because FACTS prove otherwise, both calibers are good stoppers. And as I said before, you just don’t argue with hard facts.
A temporary cavity is not less important because it’s “temporary”. That’s an ignorant approach.
Just like with any other material, there an E factor of elasticity. Once you stretch tissue to a certain extent, it gets past a point of no return where it gets DAAMGED. A shock damaged organ, tissue and nervous terminals affects people, its like having a small bomb explode in you, that wave creates, pain shock and damage.
Yu just can’t ignore the importance of the hydraulic shock, the way it affects the person’s nervous system, not necessarily being a CNS shot.
I know of a guy that put down an armed attacker with a single 45 hardball slug to the shoulder. The guy went down, and stayed down, not being able to shoot back. He later lost the arm. Seems that the projectile smashed through the socket where the arm bone meets the shoulder. The terrible pain wave shocked him enough to leave him barely conscious on the floor, instantly. So much for only CNS shots and blood loss being the only instant fight stoppers.
The human body is just too complex for such a simplistic analysis.
It’s not only about penetration. An ice pick through the brain may put the lights out, but so will a JHP +P 9mm impacting the stomach of someone that just drank 1 liter of Coke.
A soccer player was left unconscious on the floor once because of a point black shot to the stomach. The policeman that shot him use LTL ammo that barely penetrated the skin, but just as if he had been hit by a huge fist, the shock by the LTL 12 ga round was so great that many internal organs where damaged and he barely managed to survive after several days of hospitalization. I saw that one live on TV, the infuriated soccer player ( healthy, mad, mid 20’s) went down like a sack of potatoes.
And then comes a reporter that was executed during the “dirty war” Shot in the face 6 feet away with a Mouser 7,65 Argentine( similar ballistics to a 7,62 x51 NATO). The round blew out his upper teeth, and exited through the upper neck. The reporter went down but he didn’t loose consciousness. He played dead ( the other victims of the firing squad were indeed dead) and he ESCAPED ON FOOT once the soldiers left. The guy exiled to USA and after some facial reconstruction you could barely see he had been shot with a darn Mauser right under the nose.
FerFAL