Enfield No.2 - Questions.

[Ninja42]

I was browsing at a downtown gun shop the other day, and I found this little gun:

The gun itself appears to be in ok shape exept from the finish, and it is affordable. Ive always wanted a cool 30ies era gun, and I am seriously considering to buy this weapon instead of travelling this summer, but I need some questions answered before I blow the money.

1) The price is equal to half the price of a new GLOCK 17. Is a weapon like this worth it? The gun is stamped 'Enfield No.2 Mk1, 1940' if that is of any importance.

2) It is chambered an oddball round called .38/200. Ive never heard of it before, and I am wondering if it is still being made? The gun would be an occational shooter if I brought it, so I need ammo. Can I fire other rounds through it than .38/200?

3) I am generally not very knowledgeable about revolvers, and much less these old break top style guns. I hear that they are very fragile, and that the break top mechanism can suffer from a multitude of mechanical defects. What should I look out for?

I am looking forward to your replies

Regards
-Michael

 

[bamacisa]

It shoots 38 S & W ammo. This is not the same as 38 Special. 38 S & W is kind of like a 38 Short except that the bullet diameter lis .360. 38 S & W ammo is not real popular but it still sold. Also reloadling dies arre available. The 38/200 refers to the fact that British use a 200 grain bullet in the cartridge. Most US ammo uses a 146 grain bulllet.

 

[tinygnat219]

The Enfield No. 2 MK 1 was the standard issue revolver of the British military. It was issued with the Webley Mk IV and Smith & Wesson Victory Model revolvers chambered in the same caliber.

The .38/200 is simply the British Designation for the .38 S&W Round with a 200 grain lead bullet. This round replaced the .455 Webley revolver round.

The history on this revolver is neat. The British firm of Webley & Scott tendered their Webley Mk IV revolver in .38/200 calibre. Rather than adopting it, the British authorities took the design to the Government-run Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, and the Enfield factory came up with a revolver that was very similar to the Webley Mk IV .38, but being slightly different. Apparently, the Webley design was more expensive to produce than at Enfield (so I have heard, but not verified). The Enfield-designed pistol was quickly accepted under the designation Revolver, No 2 Mk I, and was adopted in 1932. It was followed in 1938 by the Mk I* (spurless hammer, double action only) which was produced because there were concerns about the hammer catching and snagging on things inside the British tanks.

If you have found one with the hammer, grab it as most were sent back to the factory for the DAO conversion. Price seems fair on it too.

Hope this helps!

 

[SaxonPig]

I can't see your photo but does it look something like this?





I got this 2 years ago at a local show for $100. That was a good price. I usually see them for $200 - $250 (I would not pay more than this). This one is in nearly perfect condition.

These are great fun to shoot and mine is surprisingly accurate using the proper .38 S&W cases loaded with .357 bullets meant for the .38 Special (the .38 S&W bore size in a larger .360).

The 38/200 is the English designation for the .38 S&W (not .38 Special) caliber. This ammo is available but is very expensive. I would not recommend this gun unless you reload your ammo for it. If you must buy ammo then get a 9mm or a .38 Special.

 

[Ninja42]

Gah! Stupid image, lets see if photobucket can do a better job at hosting it.



Yes, its hammer is intact.

I dont plan on shooting her too often, but IMHO a gun is worthless if you cant put rounds through it once in a while. But .38 S&W should work, and be obtainable? There is a reloading bench at the gun club I frequent, this might be a good excuse for me to learn how to operate it.

I am getting more and more keep on this thing What about the mechanics? How do I make sure that this gun is healthy and safe to shoot?

 

[Mike_In_BC]

These revolvers must be more common up here in canada. I have a couple of enfield's and an older .455 webley. I shoot all of them a bit, they were built to last forever and they probably will. I think the way to check the timing is with the trigger pulled (make sure it is empty) and the hammer down. The cylinder should be at its tightest then with little side to side or front to back movement.

All of mine have some play when checked, but they shoot. These revolvers were not designed to be target pistols anyway.

 

[mainmech48]

The .38 S&W cartridge was one of the first CF "pocket revolver" rounds. It's not particularly potent, although it can show very nice accuracy from a quality revolver. IIRC, nominal factory specs ran something like 146 gr. bullet of 0.363" at about 700 f/s. IMO, the velocity figure was likely very optimistic from a 4-5" bbl.

Somehow, the British military concluded that a .38 slug of 200 grs. at a nominal 630 f/s was equal in "stopping power" to the older .455's 260 gr. load at 600 f/s. Go figure.

Anyway, that's what they went to, followed by a jacketed slug weighing about 178 gr. to comply with the Geneva and Hague agreements.

As Mike Venturino demonstrated in a recent article the lead slug .380/200 load will barely ding an old steel USGI helmet at 10 paces whereas the .455 will at least put a dent in it.

I had one of these back when I was a kid. It was my first CF revolver and made me start handloading to feed it. Components are readily available, as are dies and loading data. Starline makes brass, but it might take a special order to get ready-made cast bullets sized correctly for the cartridge. Standard ".38/.357" slugs will be seriously undersized and accuracy very poor.

While the Webley design is, IMO, the strongest and most durable of the original top-breaks one should still keep their handloads on the very mild end of the data. FWIW, it took me a lot of experimenting and a new front sight blade to get mine to shoot to POA with a 158 gr. bullet.

 

[bannockburn]

Ninja42

That's a nice old Enfield you've got there. I especially like the wood grips. Most of the ones I've seen over the years look exactly like the one SaxonPig posted. Years ago I had a Webley Mk. IV, that while it was a little rough in its exterior appearance (Wartime Finish and all), it locked up fairly tight, was fun to shoot, and made for a decent plinker.

 

[Moonclip]

Ones with the hammer intact are scarce. You may want to buy it.

 

[Jim K]

The early ones with the wood grips are quite well made, even as late as 1940. I would put the price at least $100 more than a common wartime No.2 Mk I*.

Jim

 

[ArchAngelCD]

As said above, the 38/200 was the British round during WWII. It's a .38 S&W case with a 200gr LRN bullet. I just ordered 100 200gr LRN bullets to try and replicate those rounds. I also ordered 200 160gr LRN bullets that are sized at .360" which should shoot very well in the Enfield. Since those revolvers are heavier than the S&W models chambered in .38 S&W I'm guessing they will shoot a 160gr bullet fine instead of having to buy 146gr lead bullet rounds from Remington at almost $30 a box.

I'm going to need more .38 S&W cases. Anyone have some laying around they don't need? I only have 150 and really don't want to buy new from Starline. (price is high you know)

 

[Mike_In_BC]

I know other people are going to disagree with this but if you have a case trimmer, I would just trim down .38 specials. I know that every range around here there are piles of .38 specials kicking around.

I have a couple of hundred .38 s&w cases but have used lots of cut down .38 specials. I just light load them with wadcutters to fire form them to the slightly larger chamber size. Everyone told me they would split but I haven't had it happen. The main problem I have is getting bullets the right size. I find that the heaviest hollow base wadcutter loaded halfway in the case works best.

I have a case of original wwII ammo, with the 174 grain jacketed bullets, they shoot the best, but I was kind of shocked when I chronographed some of them.

.380 mk IIz (what the brits called the ammo I have)
1.532 fps
2.475
3.514
4.481
5.509
6.505

I also tried some factory ammo.
.38 s&w winchester super-x 145 grain bullet
1.662
2.624
3.601
4.656
5.645
6.617

 

[mainmech48]

If you try using cut-down .38 Spl. cases you're looking for trouble. The .38 S&W case has enough larger base diameter to make bulged and/split cases a real possibility. Try sticking one of those .38 S&W cases into a .38 Spl. cylinder to see for yourself.

When I was a kid there were lots of surplus "Victory" model lend-lease S&Ws and even a few Webleys and Enfields floating around that had been reamed to accept a .38 Spl. by the importer in order to make them more attractive to unwary buyers.

Accuracy was wretched and virtually every case was ruined. I personally witnessed two injuries resulting from case failures in them: one using standard pressure factory ammo and one with a luke-warm handload.

Bottomline, IMO: Don't do it. 100 Starline cases ain't that big an investment when you compare it to an ER visit.

 

[tinygnat219]

To the OP:

I see the one you are looking at has a hammer. Grab it.