Equipment Selection for A Visit to the Sandbox...

[Chris Rhines]

Here's how it is - you're going to be leaving for Iraq in six weeks, to do a tour as a technical contractor. Although this is a strictly civilian, non-combat job, you will be required to be armed.

The contract requires you to provide one 5.56mm AR-15 carbine, six magazines, and one .45ACP pistol. Ammunition and other consumables will be provided in-theater.

Weapon-wise, what would you take? What modifications would you have made, if any? Assume an unlimited budget, but whatever you take, you have to be able to get in 4-6 weeks. Note - The rifle MUST be an AR-15 or clone in 5.56mm NATO, and the pistol MUST be a .45ACP self-loader.

The story behind this question is two acquaintances of mine are going to Iraq, same circumstances, and they asked me to help them get their gear sorted out.


Thanks,
Chris

 

[Arc-Lite]

Firstly, I would send both the AR and the Colt off to a first class smith, and have them go threw it, top to bottom... depending on the "job" I would consider a light rail...or laser sight for the AR.... then I would send both weapons off, to someone who would do a weather proof and self lube finish...on them both and the mags...inside and out.... (Mac's). Find a good sling, for the AR and a good should rig for the Colt... both with mag pouchs. I would take a repair kit, and all lubes and cleaning gear....needed, a synthetic oil, would be the best bet. If this question is directed toward other gear....a GPS, maps, flashlight and batteries and work and carry knife maybe a swiss army, and KBAR...and stone. Water bladder, spare hat,sun block..the list goes on .... set the AR up for use with or with the sights....and the Colt, for quick short shots..tell them both....double taps are a must... a least...and remind them, people die over there...so get your affairs in order.

 

[Preacherman]

For the carbine, I'd buy a good AR-15 or M4 equivalent from Rock River Arms, Les Baer, or Armalite, in that order of preference. I'd make sure I put at least 1,000 rounds downrange, getting it sighted in and smoothed out, using the magazines I'd be taking with me. This would get the operating mechanism "bedded down". If I could, I'd want an upper with a gas piston, but I don't know how widely available these are - the HK unit would be top choice, IMHO.

As for accessories, I'd mount a four-rail Picatinny fore-end (top, bottom and both sides). I'd want a weapon light, laser unit, a decent sight (ACOG for preference), and possibly a fore-end vertical grip unit. I'd leave a bipod out - the vertical grip can serve as a field-expedient rest. I'd probably replace the pistol grip with a better unit, and make sure that I had somewhere handy to carry additional batteries for all electrically-powered accessories. I'd take at least one set of batteries with me for every week I expected to be over there.

For the .45, I'd carry a SIG P220, possibly the rail-equipped version if I was expecting night combat. I'd have both chest and thigh holsters for it - the chest unit to fit over body armor, the thigh unit to operate below body armor. I'd want a weapon light and a laser unit, preferably Crimson Trace. Again, I'd put at least 1,000 rounds through it before departure, using the magazines I'd be taking with me, and the carry ammo I'd have over there.

I'd send both weapons to Robar to have them treated with Roguard/NP3 and/or any other finish that would improve their operation in a sandy, gritty environment. This would also cut down on the need for frequent cleaning. The gas-piston upper would be a huge plus factor in such an environment. Of the 1,000 rounds of ammo I mentioned, I'd put 500 rounds through each before the treatment, and 500 after, so as to ensure that they were broken in both before and after refinishing.

As for ammo, I'd want the most effective rounds available. In 5.56mm., I'd probably choose either the Black Hills 75gr. load, or Hornady TAP in 62gr. or 75gr. weights. In .45, I'd go for either Remington Golden Saber 230gr. JHP +P or Speer Gold Dot 230gr. JHP +P, with a third choice being the Black Hills +P load.

I'd also make sure I took spares kits with me for both weapons - at least one set of replacement springs and pins, probably two, and also spare magazine springs and followers.

 

[Arc-Lite]

Another point Chris... slightly off topic, but worth a conideration.. a sniper or the enemy, if able, will pick their target....one, of opportunity, being in the wrong place, at the wrong time... so pick your places CAREFULLY.... and two, in the group your with, if you are with pilots, officers, and specialized civilian contractors....your risk, if your not in this catagory, is secondary....if your with a group, of unarmed workers, and your the only one armed..your the priority target. Going into a hot zone, with no experience and only the zest for quick cash....is sometimes the last bad choice one makes. They have six weeks, to polish ALL THE SENSES..to a razor edge and this must be a 24/7...to hopefully make it second nature. One last piece of gear...yet mentioned.... the best bullet proof vest they can find.... with spare plates. Depending on their build, I would go with a custom hi-cap 45 ACP, and suggest all custom finishes to be non glare.

 

[Derek Zeanah]

Excellent answers.

Check out the forums over at tacticalforums -- there is some good discussion of terminal ballistics, and they'll list the good rounds to choose from.

A Sig 220 is great (the first .45 I ever fired), but I'd be inclined to go with either a 1911 (I hit best with them, and they feel natural) or a Glock (if'n the idea is "maximize reliability, good accuracy, I'm not really a gunny anyway.")

I'd grab an AR with an adjustable buttstock (think armor and vehicles) and I'd mount a 2-4 power scope on it -- acog, elcan, whatever. Red dots are nice, but after owning 'em both I'm a low-magnification fan.

Not a listed requirement, but how 'bout some high-quality level 3-4 armor?

 

[Chris Rhines]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

A few points of clarification:

- These guys are engineers, not shooters. They'll be working with the military forces, but neither one is active-duty military. Their firearms are going to be strictly for emergency self-defense, break contact, cover-me-while-I-get-the-hell-out-of-here duty. Hence, I want to keep things as simple as possible.

- The pistol has to be a 1911. Just found that out an hour ago. I was really leaning towards the Sig P220, too. Sigh.

- I'll check over whatever they end up getting. There probably will not be time to send out any weapons for refinishing, but I'll call Robar on Monday. Never hurts to ask.

- Ammo is going to be provided in-theater, and I haven't been able to find out exactly what they'll be getting. Probably, it will be 5.56mm M855 and .45ACP ball.

I'm leaning towards an LMT 16" carbine, short stock (maybe a Magpul M93B), Aimpoint/LaRue, and JP or PRI float tube, and a Colt 1991A1 with all the MIM parts replaced with tool steel, Heinie SlantPros, and Crimson Trace Lasergrips. We'll see how that goes over.

- Chris

- Chris

 

[Ivy Mike]

For guys who don't shoot for a living, I'd ditch the AR15 and .45.

Use 5.56, but load it into an Arsenal Inc. AK pattern rifle.
I'd use 9mm as it is probably really common over there. Most of our military uses it and I'd surmise that it is readily available in Iraq.

My choice would be an Arsenal In SA M5R and a CZ75 P-01. Stock up on extra mags for each and possibly a light for the CZ. Holster would be a good idea too.
You can also get attachments for the AK's rail that have a standard rail for goodies.

If it must be an AR, just call up Bushmaster and have them send you something with a 20" barrel. Rails are a good idea. If it must be a .45ACP handgun, the USP would be a logical choice. The USP 45 holds more ammo than a 1911 and is lighter and more reliable. A CZ97 might work as well and operates similar to CZ75B.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Um, sorry. Thought that I was clear. The rifle MUST be a 5.56mm AR-15, and the pistol MUST be a 1911-pattern in .45ACP. Not my choices, true, but that's what I'm working with.

Arc-Lite, message recieved on the body armor.

- Chris

 

[Ivy Mike]

Meh, don't go if you are forced to use sub-par eqiupment.

I still vote Bushmaster 20" barrel.
I guess if you are forced to use a 1911, make it a S&W or Springfield.

 

[Preacherman]

Chris, if the pistol has to be a 1911-style, why not the SIG GSR? I think it's one of the highest-quality 1911's out there, and it has a rail in case of need. As for the AR clone, I don't know the make of which you speak, so I can't comment. However, for both guns, I'd make sure of the 1,000-round break-in period before shipping out, that's for sure!

BTW, if you call Robar and let them know about deployment, I think they'll let you jump ahead of the waiting list and do a rush job for you. Most specialists of this kind will do all they can to help.

 

[bradvanhorn]

Well, you said unlimited budget on two specific weapons, so I'd probably opt for:

1911 - Wilson CQB with light rail

AR - LMT Lower with SOPMOD collapsing stock and LMT 16" CQB Monolithic Rail Platform Package. Add an ACOG TA31 (A or F model) with LaRue mount, Tango Down Battle Grip, Dieter CQD foregrip, have Troy back up iron sights handy for front and rear (in case ACOG gets damaged)

I'm not sure about weapon lights and/or lasers...

As mentioned above, they should definitely have top quality soft body armor, to include Level 4 rifle plates. We use Interceptor, which is fine; personally I'd probably consider a different Point Blank tac-vest if I had the option.

 

[centac]

The first thing I'd do is find a different company that didnt think so little of its on employees that it wouldnt buy them guns. That just aint right

If forced to, and these guys apparently are'nt even supposed to be shooters, I'd recommend box-stock m4gerys with no bells and whistles, Springfield mil-specs and spend the rest of my money on training and practice ammo. Then when I got there if need be I'd buy a real 16 from somebody who was leaving.

 

[Zak Smith]

Easy. Since you're a technical contractor, these are strictly defense only. No need to get fancy.

Colt M4.
An appropriate model Kimber, shot in 1000 rounds.

Both of these have a high probability of working out of the box, and don't need messing with.

The equipment choice is totally secondary to MINDSET.

-z

 

[Litlman]

I would say go with the K.I.S.S. principle. Colt m4 tactical carbine and since the money is no object, a Wilson or Baer in their toughest finish offered. A complete training on how to keep them clean and running in that environment. No bells or whistles. Point and shoot.

 

[115grfmj]

No offense to all the mall ninja's but.....

combat is rough, dirty, frenetic,, and encounters are quick, with little time
for fumbling. The main principle is KISS. M-4: Rock RIver, Bushy. Send it
out for smoothing, to one of the great ar smiths, just leave off the gadgetry.(Trust me on this one, you wont have time to use it anyway). Get the green
mil-spec followers for your mags. For the .45, get a good mil-spec, like SA,
colts 1991 a-1, your going 230gr hardball anyway, you want reliability for
you last ditch weapon.

I agree on the 1000rds for each weapon, it will make any problems apparent.
Try for a dusty enivro, with little lube on the guns ( BTW use military clp for lube).

In country, use baloons (or condoms) rubber band over M-4's muzzle with rubber bands (keep desert out). Assault sling, (wear m4 across your chest).
Keep in condition one (with all the sh*T going down lately, safteys get you killed). 1911 keep in either leg holster, or assualt vest (swat style).

Practice the mantra "Hi speed, Low drag".


One last thing look people in the EYES!!!!!

 

[Citadel99]

I've been in Iraq for 6 months now. The only civilians that legitimately carry weapons are the security contractors--Triple Canopy, Blackwater, KBR Security, etc. Outside of the Blackwater/Triple Canopy types, I have only seen sidearms on civilians.

Mark

 

[sacp81170a]

Only one thing I'd add that no one else has suggested: MAGS, LOTS O' MAGS. As many as they can comfortably carry and still perform their job functions. BTDT, sucks to run dry.

 

[1911 guy]

CLP is Crap

Using clp is bad advice. Use Break Free, wipe it off after a few mins. and run your weapon that way. Going by the book is the reason our guys are cussing their rifles over there right now. Trust me, had the same situation in ''90. As for Kimbers running right out of the box, don't get me started. Buy something reliable.

 

[nico]

Using clp is bad advice. Use Break Free

umm, Break Free is the aforementioned military CLP.

I'm no expert, but I've heard nothing but great things about the Springfield TRP Professional. Since it's a custom shop gun anyway, maybe if you told them your situation, they could do a little extra to make sure you'll have a reliable gun.

 

[1911 guy]

CLP is Break Free

No, the clp we got issued was this white gooey crap.

 

[bradvanhorn]

...leave off the gadgetry.(Trust me on this one, you wont have time to use it anyway...

Keep in condition one (with all the sh*T going down lately, safteys get you killed).

Not sure where you're coming from on these comments. I can't speak for everyone, but "gadgets" make our Marines more effective. The ACOG has improved hit %'s, weapon lights improve night target ID, etc. Just because these are "defensive" weapons doesn't mean these guys won't benefit from the added capability. Condition One has the selector/safety levers in the safe position, and our biggest threat is IED's and indirect fire. I'm curious where you got the idea safeties are getting people killed ?

I've been in Iraq for 6 months now. The only civilians that legitimately carry weapons are the security contractors--Triple Canopy, Blackwater, KBR Security, etc. Outside of the Blackwater/Triple Canopy types, I have only seen sidearms on civilians.

So sidearms aren't weapons ? Maybe things have changed significantly, but I saw many civilians with weapons when I was there. For example, the FedEx guy carried an HK MP5 and a Browning Hi-Power, another guy (can't remember the company) carried an HK MP5K, and yet another guy (also can't remember company) carried an AKSU. To the best of my knowledge, most of the civilians can have weapons, but many simply choose not to. Heck, one of the contractors I worked with was a retired Army SF Sergeant Major, and he didn't bother with a weapon (though maybe he should have).

These guys are engineers, not shooters. They'll be working with the military forces, but neither one is active-duty military. Their firearms are going to be strictly for emergency self-defense, break contact, cover-me-while-I-get-the-hell-out-of-here duty.

Chances are slim to none they will ever fire a shot, but if you're going to have weapons, have the best you can get. These guys will be better off simply practicing good personal protective measures, like maintaining good awareness, using varied routes and times, avoiding places Americans frequent (off-base), etc., etc. Nevertheless, I wouldn't deprive them of the opportunity to fight; give them good weapons and make sure they understand how to use them.


I'll be going back to Iraq myself in another couple months, and I wish your friends good luck.

 

[NMshooter]

I think the most important thing they could do is to shoot at least 1000 rounds through each firearm before going over there.

Not only will they know that their particular firearm is functional, but they will have gained some experience with it.

As far as what to get, the requirement for a 1911 sounds odd, but any major manufacturer should do so long as you get to put a case or two through it before leaving. The only extra I would really recommend is night sights, and you can make do without if you have to.

For the AR, again any major manufacturer should be ok after putting some rounds through it. As far as configuration and accessories go, I would recommend a collapsing stock and carbine length barrel (14.5" or 16") whichever make and model the individual prefers. A flattop upper receiver should be a given, optical sights are wonderful and a backup iron sight will still be there if you need it. If a rail foreend is desired have them get whatever they want. The Surefire M73 is solid and does not require removal of the barrel and front sight base. There are other ways to mount a flashlight, however.

A flashlight on the belt is a good idea too.

Maybe some professional training too, if they have the time and money.

Most important is to get out and shoot those guns a lot before relying on them.

 

[Balog]

1911guy: that "gooey white crap" is either LSA or LSAT. I use it on my 240, but I've never seen it put on a M16. CLP aka Breakfree is the oil issued in the standard M16 cleaning kit. The only place I've seen LSAT (which is just LSA w/ Teflon added) is the A bags for 240's. I think it may be issued w/ the MK19 and .50's too, but I'm a gunner on a TOW variant so I'm not sure.

 

[Hardware]

Some non-weapon thoughts;

Multi tool. I like the SOG powerlock for its gear drive mechanical advantage. I also like the crimpers behind the plier head. Whatever they guys like, get it. The longer you have one of these around the more uses you find for it.

Knife. since you've already got the multi tool for little jobs get something big with a thick spine so you can lean on it without hearing the *ping* of despair. I like drop points over bowies. The big swept tips on some bowies just says "break me off". And I'd stay away from double edged knives. This isn't a commando knife, just something for the bigger jobs. Spend money and get a good knife. If nothing else a Kabar has been a reliable tool and trusty backup and I believe they can still be had for less than $50.

LED light with a head mount. I understand these are very popular. Ten years back I discovered how a AA maglight on a head strap does two things very well. It frees up both hands for tasks with no more effort than looking at what you want to see and it made you look like a total dork. However, vanity aside it was incredibly functional. The LED lights run on lithium or AAA batteries and are about twice as bright as that old AA maglight. While you're at it bring spare bulbs and batteries.

Good luck!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Chris, if the pistol has to be a 1911-style, why not the SIG GSR? I think it's one of the highest-quality 1911's out there, and it has a rail in case of need.

Bad choice. Sig has had so many problems with the GSR that they have stopped production temporarily. The revamped models won't be available for several months, and IMHO any that are currently available, being the original model, are not reliable enough for hazardous duty use.