Equivalent Powders

[Durango_Dave]

The following powders are equivalent:

Win 231 = Hodgdon HP-38
Win 296 = Hodgdon H110
Win 760 = Hodgdon H414

But how equivalent? Are they really the same? Most of my reloading handbooks show the exact same data for equivalent powders.
Here's my understanding, but I have no way to substantiate this. Correct me if I'm wrong but there used to be lots of companies making smokeless powder. When Hodgdon bought the rights to distribute Winchester Powders they had the rights to sell the powder under the Hodgdon name.
I think they are making Hodgdon H110 the same as Winchester 296 is made. I've seen Youtubers compare H110 to Win 296. They come up almost the same on the chronograph. I think testing these two powders is the same as testing batch to batch consistency of the same powder.

The following are equivalent but discontinued. This may be helpful if you run across an old reloading book and want to find the modern equivalent.
Win 540 (discontinued) = HS-6
WAP (discontinued) = Silhouette
W571 = HS-7 (both discontinued)

 

[Cfish]

I once had a pound each of Win231 and HP38 that had the same lot #.

 

[Durango_Dave]

I once had a pound each of Win231 and HP38 that had the same lot #.

When it's time for the production line to change powders I'll bet they only change the labels.

 

[Durango_Dave]

It looks like Hodgdon H414 is also discontinued.

 

[MEHavey]

They only differ (if/when they do) by Lot# characteristics

 

[Charlie98]

There have been a number of threads on this subject...

Indeed, W231 and HP38 are the exact same powder, as are W296 and H110, etc, etc. What's funny is they are rarely the same price, for whatever reason.

There are also some powders that have changed sources, and the original powder goes on to become something else. I believe Shooters World Buffalo Rifle is the old version of AA5744, for example, after Accurate changed their source for their version of AA5744.

 

[LiveLife]

But how equivalent? Are they really the same?

Yes, there are same/exact powders with same/exact load data but with different brand/name and I deem them same like W231/HP-38, W296/H110, etc. If I can't find one, I simply buy another as direct substitute.

And there are comparable/equivalent powders with similar burn rate but different load data (start/max charges) and I consider them as similar substitute (But using different load data) when I can't find the powder. So if I can't find Accurate No. 2, I would consider buying Shooter's World Clean Shot. If I can't find Alliant BE-86, I would consider buying Winchester WSF. If I can't find or don't want to spend the money for Vihtavuori N320, I consider buying Hodgdon Titegroup or Alliant Sport Pistol.

We have gone through this exercise of finding same/exact and comparable/equivalent powders in past component shortages and summarized our group effort in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ble-powders-during-component-shortage.890865/

 

[Durango_Dave]

Yes, there are same/exact powders with same/exact load data but with different brand/name and I deem them same like W231/HP-38, W296/H110, etc. If I can't find one, I simply buy another as direct substitute.

And there are comparable/equivalent powders with similar burn rate but different load data (start/max charges) and I consider them as similar substitute (But using different load data) when I can't find the powder. So if I can't find Accurate No. 2, I would consider buying Shooter's World Clean Shot. If I can't find Alliant BE-86, I would consider buying Winchester WSF. If I can't find or don't want to spend the money for Vihtavuori N320, I consider buying Hodgdon Titegroup or Alliant Sport Pistol.

We have gone through this exercise of finding same/exact and comparable/equivalent powders in past component shortages and summarized our group effort in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ble-powders-during-component-shortage.890865/

Thanks LiveLife good information there. That's what I've been looking for.

 

[MEHavey]

similar substitute (But using different load data)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^

 

[Pivot Dr]

One of my favorite gun shops once got in some 8# H-414 with a WW760 label stuck over the H-414 label. What does that tell you?

 

[Jim Watson]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there used to be lots of companies making smokeless powder.

When I started reloading in 1970 there were Hercules, now Alliant; Winchester/Olin, now St Marks/General Dynamics; and DuPont, now IMR/General Dynamics in Canada. No new US commercial manufacturers I know of.

Hodgdon started out selling military surplus powder, then new powder of the same grades, now distributes Winchester and IMR as well as own brand and has absorbed Western Powder, Ramshot, and Accurate importers and distributors. They don’t make smokeless powder and don’t own the factories their powders are made in.

Read the label. Made in USA is St Marks or Alliant and don’t think Alliant makes powder under other labels.

 

[LiveLife]

Read the label. Made in USA is St Marks or Alliant and don’t think Alliant makes powder under other labels.

Alliant will now make powders under Czechoslovak Group (CSG), a 100 year old Czech Republic company after Vista Outdoor sold off ammunition companies from "Sporting Goods" companies - https://www.americanrifleman.org/co...s-federal-cci-hevi-shot-remington-ammo-speer/

Alliant powders will still be "Made in USA" for the foreseeable future.

 

[Jim Watson]

CSG also owns Fiocchi, B&P, and Lyalvale ammo companies.

 

[LiveLife]

CSG also owns Fiocchi, B&P, and Lyalvale ammo companies.

It's going to be CSG duking it out with CBC/MEN/Magtech/S&B ... Two heavyweights of global ammunition manufacturers.

 

[Show Me]

I once had a pound each of Win231 and HP38 that had the same lot #.

Manufactured, shipped, hodgdon packages

 

[Rule3]

And away we go, again and again

The OP can scroll to the bottom of this thread and read all the similar threads

 

[DustyRusty]

It's like a soap opera. It has its fans.

 

[Jake in TX]

Alliant will now make powders under Czechoslovak Group (CSG), a 100 year old Czech Republic company after Vista Outdoor sold off ammunition companies from "Sporting Goods" companies - https://www.americanrifleman.org/co...s-federal-cci-hevi-shot-remington-ammo-speer/

I saw this and have looked into the Vista Outdoor news releases, and see no direct mention of Alliant Powder, or any primer or bullet business. According to this news release:

https://news.vistaoutdoor.com/newsr...Name-as-Company-Separation-Nears/default.aspx

their Sporting Products group will become The Kinetic Group (https://thekineticgroup.com/). On their Web page I see numerous boxes of ammunition (CCI, Speer, Federal, Remington, Hevi-Shot) and no powder, boxes of primers, or boxes of bullets. I watched the linked YouTube video, and only mentions of ammunition. I would not be surprised if CSG only wants the ammo business, and they sell off the components business. Also, I would not be surprised if The Kinetic Group is the USA subsidiary for CSG for these businesses.

Jake in TX

Edited to add: If I have more comments to add, I will ad them to https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-goods-companies.920371/page-3#post-12737880 rather than cause more drift than I have cause here. My apologies.

 

[mdi]

There is a difference between equivalent and same. "Equivalent" can be thought of same performance, different composition. "Same" is same chemical make up, performance, etc., Never used Win 760/H414 and haven't researched, but the other two are "same"...

 

[LiveLife]

I saw this and have looked into the Vista Outdoor news releases, and see no direct mention of Alliant Powder, or any primer or bullet business.

We have been tracking Vista Outdoor splitting into two companies in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-goods-companies.920371/page-3#post-12737880

Since objective of the split was to separate ammunition related companies from outdoor sporting products to avoid anti-gun boycott fallout, it was understood as Alliant powder and CCI/Federal primers and now Remington primers and ammunition to be part of the ammunition related companies separation from Vista Outdoor.

No mention of Alliant/Federal/Remington powder/primer could be possible CSG plan to use existing powder/primer lines and perhaps split these into further split company but that's just my guess.

It would be nice if Paul from @Alliant Reloading could provide us some insights as to what is happening with Alliant/Federal/Remington powders/primers. (PM sent)

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

We have been tracking Vista Outdoor splitting into two companies in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-goods-companies.920371/page-3#post-12737880

Since objective of the split was to separate ammunition related companies from outdoor sporting products to avoid anti-gun boycott fallout, it was understood as Alliant powder and CCI/Federal primers and now Remington primers and ammunition to be part of the ammunition related companies separation from Vista Outdoor.

No mention of Alliant/Federal/Remington powder/primer could be possible CSG plan to use existing powder/primer lines and perhaps split these into further split company but that's just my guess.

It would be nice if Paul from @Alliant Reloading could provide us some insights as to what is happening with Alliant/Federal/Remington powders/primers. (PM sent)

It would be nice but I’ve found it true that quite often public-facing representatives are not told much (read, any) more than the public whose questions they answer. I had an opportunity to corner.. I mean chat with.. a VMWare VP in Vegas about the Broadcom takeover. I got the same two-liners as the print materials. After the third round of asking pointed questions he put his hands up and said, “they don’t tell me anything more than they tell customer service. Seriously, I don’t know if I even have a job next week.”
Corporate public relations is typically pretty skimpy so Paul may not know anything more. Not making excuses for someone else, just saying don’t interpret silence as withholding.

 

[LiveLife]

I saw this and have looked into the Vista Outdoor news releases, and see no direct mention of Alliant Powder, or any primer

It would be nice if Paul from @Alliant Reloading could provide us some insights as to what is happening with Alliant/Federal/Remington powders/primers. (PM sent)

Got an PM reply from Paul and Alliant powders (And presumably Federal/Remington primers) will remain with ammunition companies under Sporting Products - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...g-goods-companies.920371/page-3#post-12755473

OK, back to OP.