Eric Holder Speaks The "EO" Words

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Just curious, could the Executive, in theory, issue an EO making sure that all NICS checks fail? I know that's really "unfair", but its not without precident. Remember the GCA/NFA registrations were levied under Congress' powers to tax. They just then refused to collect the tax.

There would be an uproar, but he might be able to sell it if he promised it as a temporary measure, just until a real "solution" can be implemented to curb all the violence and pandemonium in the streets. Last I heard was that the system was having problems with the workload anyway. Could be a good excuse.
 
The President's enumerated powers include making treaties with foreign nations. Making a treaty with China to not import AKs or SKSs is part of his legal powers and duties.

Stopping domestic sales of firearms, making 30 rd. mags illegal, turning ARs into Title II items, etc, are NOT part of his enumerated powers and thus cannot be the subject of Executive Orders.
 
More specifically, when the Clinton administration was negotiating a trade agreement with China in 1993, one condition imposes on the Chinese as part of the deal was that they agree not to export arms or ammunition to the U. S.
 
So since the President's power to make and enforce treaties and foreign affairs are a lot broader than his power to control domestic issues or laws the question if current firearms such as Saiga's and CZ's be banned from importation by E.O. remains unanswered. If so it would be quick way to score media points.

Maybe a more accurate statement is what will Congress let him get away with?
 
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The main question I have is about the "easily convertible to full auto" clause in NFA. If I understand correctly, this clause has already been used to outlaw open bolts. Why can't BHO extend that to cover "easily replaceable fire control groups" or something like that. That would very neatly cover almost all semi-autos, certainly ARs.
 
Frank Ettin said:
A regulation promulgated by a regulatory agency within the scope of its authority has the force of law. However, a regulation remains subject to challenge in court on a variety of grounds.

A regulation can be challenged on constitutional grounds.


It may also be challenged on the grounds that it is outside the agency's authority to promulgate regulations or goes beyond the scope of underlying enabling statutes. In other words, a regulation can non completely remake the statutory law.


A regulation may also be challenged if there were defects in the rule making process.
In the case of the proposed knife regulations, the issue was effectively mooted by legislation.

In the case of those U. S. Customs proposed regulations, had they been adopted they might have been subject to judicial attack. But because various groups were able to mount a successful legislative attack, that wasn't necessary.

I think it's also pertinent to point out that all proposed rules and regulations do not become law until Congress has looked at them and not passed legislation to prohibit those proposed rules/regulations from becoming law. But, with half of Congress under the control of the Democrats and the other half under the control of the Republicans, passing law to prohibit such rules/regulations from becoming law is near impossible. On top of that, even if such law were to pass, Obama's veto - it would be his administration proposing those rules/regulations - would also be nearly impossible to override.

Woody
 
The main question I have is about the "easily convertible to full auto" clause in NFA. If I understand correctly, this clause has already been used to outlaw open bolts. Why can't BHO extend that to cover "easily replaceable fire control groups" or something like that. That would very neatly cover almost all semi-autos, certainly ARs.
The clearest reason is that the BATFE has spent the last few decades declaring very clearly what IS and what ISN'T "readily convertible" and semi-auto AR-15s are NOT, by their own descriptions.

Further, their lockwork is not substantively different from any of the hundreds of other semi-automatic firearm designs so if they were indeed to say "oops we lied" about ARs, they'd have to say the same thing about everything from 1911s and C96 Mauser pistols to Remington 11-87 shotguns, to Browning BAR hunting rifles, to Ruger 10/22s and Marlin 60s, to... well, you get the point.

Now, have they reversed themselves in the past? Oh assuredly. But never to the extent of affecting something like 150,000,000 legally owned firearms. That's a pretty big reversal. The costs to administer and enforce that would utterly hijack and derail, not just the BATFE, but probably the whole fed.gov as well as irretrievably enraging at least 30% of US households against the government. They don't want that, and won't try for it. Creeping incrementalism doesn't work if you do something to alienate and call to arms your entire target at once.
 
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This isn't the first discussion of what E.O.'s can and can't do, or what can be or not be done thru powers delegated to the three branches of Government.

What a lot forget is that those powers are known as checks and balances, and have worked as such in the past. When LEO's began confiscating firearms in the aftermath of Katrina, lawsuits in Federal court stopped it within days.

The courts hold themselves quite capable of interpreting the law, and just because some of us are concerned about a politician running amok with extraordinary powers, it doesn't make it so. If the courts say "This must stop," then that is exercising THEIR power. Contempt of Court isn't something to be trifled with, either. Judges won't put up with it, they have to act to protect their authority along Constitutional lines.

If anything, what I read from a lot of posts is this: too many don't have a good grasp of what each branch of Government can and can't do. Times with questions like these provide answers - like whether a Senator can introduce a bill when the House has to vote on it, too. Both houses still require the bill to go thru committee, and that alone is a gauntlet of Constitutional review and insider politics. In the face of the current debacle on the fiscal cliff, is that such a slam dunk?

If there is actually one side or the other who seems to be reacting hysterically, is it the side spouting off solutions contrary to law, the Constitution, or even common sense, or the side scrambling feverishly to acquire firearms in the view they will be banned, prohibited, or even taken from them? It's sounds pretty ignorant on both parts. At the worst, it makes the panic buyers look as if they have already given up, have no part in politics, and know they won't win.

This is going to go on a lot longer than their credit limit will allow - time to suck it up and start thinking about the long run, how to protect your rights, and worry less about how to satisfy an itch to have another toy.
 
Tirod, that was beautifully well said. While we take a dim view of "cross-posting" I'm tempted to copy and quote that post into every one of our bounteous plentitude of current "panic" threads.
 
This isn't the first discussion of what E.O.'s can and can't do, or what can be or not be done thru powers delegated to the three branches of Government.

...too many don't have a good grasp of what each branch of Government can and can't do.

The only person I'm concerned about who does not seem to grasp this is President "I can't wait for congress to act" Obama or President "The court is in my way and is making my job difficult" Obama and President "I'm not going to enforce that law because I don't like it" Obama.

This President has a four year history of sidestepping the law at every chance he thinks he can - if you choose to ignore that history, shame on you. I fully expect he'll look for every conceivable way to work around our laws.

Your mileage may vary...
 
The ironic thing is, I really don't even like some types of semi-automatic firearms personally. I wouldn't want an HK style because they have a reputation for chewing up brass with their fluted chambers, and none of the AK's I have had have ever stuck. If I still had them all, I could make a fortune selling them in this market right now, but they just never kept my interest.
But tell us that we can't have them, then we make it a point to tell you that we will have them.
Panic buying or not, it sends a message that this type of firearm is very popular and so well loved by the shooting public. It also puts money into the bank accounts of Colt, S&W, Ruger, BCM, Magpul, Midway, and countless other gun related companies that can be used to help fight legislation of the type that is going to be proposed.

If you can lay hands on a few hi-cap Glock magazines from Midway between backorders and shortages, and you think you can use them anyway, why not put a little more money into the shooting industry?

As for the likelihood of an EO, I think Tirod makes a good point. In spite of the media circus, guns have become increasingly popular in the last decade. The expiration of the first AW ban caused many of us to go out and start experiementing with semi-auto firearms and folding stocks, CCW is being upheld in courts all over the place, even D.C.'s handgun ban was overturned - by the US Supreme Court no less. If I'd told you at the beginning of the 1994 ban that this would be the situation less than two decades later, you may have called me nuts. Yet here we are, with the AR-15 being one of the most popular rifles in circulation today, literally selling so fast that manufacturers can't make enough of them and spawning huge accessory markets in the process.

I'm not exactly comfortable with the whole situation, but it's also nowhere near a lost cause.
 
Sam1911 has clearly stated how the law and government works. I'm just not sure it works that way anymore. I mean, he's right, but we do see a track record of sidestepping legal authority at every turn he thinks he's able to get away with it.
 
It is really hard to argue against the concern that the President might just decide "screw the law I'm going to ..." I mean, sure I guess, he could just decide to push his luck in a do-or-die gambit. Tell the BATFE to enforce a new order completely outside the text or plausible interpretation of the laws passed by Congress. Tell the FBI to deny all background checks, period. Heck, tell the CIA to extradite all gun dealers to a holding facility at Guantanamo. Why not? Do it and tell the Congress and Court they can't stop him so go home.

But that sort of thing is really just too far outside of possible for us to really spend time worrying about here. Yeah, if he did, that would be bad. But it would also be a complete abrogation of his role and powers as the US President. It would violate the very fundamental document that describes, not just an enumeration of our rights, but the very construction of how our government functions. If he really can do all that, an assault weapons ban is about the least of our concerns. The US government will have ceased to be and we'll be living either in a dictatorship or in a state of civil war.

Of course, knowing a lot of "gun guys" that's all just icing on the fantasy cake. :rolleyes: "Wolverines!!!" Right?
 
But that sort of thing is really just too far outside of possible for us to really spend time worrying about here. Yeah, if he did, that would be bad. But it would also be a complete abrogation of his role and powers as the US President. It would violate the very fundamental document that describes, not just an enumeration of our rights, but the very construction of how our government functions. If he really can do all that, an assault weapons ban is about the least of our concerns.

Too far outside the possible? He's already done it in the past! Where have you been the past four years?
 
Too far outside the possible? He's already done it in the past! Where have you been the past four years?

Show me.

The POTUS has rather wide latitude in the interpretation, implementation and enforcement of existing law.

Contrary to popular belief and contrary to the rantings of various political entertainers; the POTUS may not make new law by executive order, trickery or hocus pocus.

Folks with a poor understanding of how the US government, specifically the executive branch, functions are being jerked around by those with a vested interest in the matter: This includes gun show promoters, online ammo sales outfits, certain gun rights organizations and gun sellers.
 
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I hope that the Supreme Court doesn't let BHO get away with unconstitutional XOs.


Really, you'll need "HOPE". If the Supreme Court ruled in favor of un-Constitutional healthcare mandate, and with "conservative" Judge Roberts casting the deciding vote, then why wouldn't they rule for un-Constitutional EO's further restricting 2A rights? Plus, when BHO gets two more justices appointed that are politically aligned with him just like ultra left Sotomayor and Kagan then they can interpret 2A anyway they want.

Elections have consequences, and I hope those that decided this one are kicking themselves now as when the 2A goes so will 1A and all the others.
 
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