erosivity of Lil Gun in .357 Magnum

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labnoti

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Since Bob Baker reported his experience with forcing cone erosion on customer guns used with Lil Gun propellant and the results of his experiment evaluating the erosivity of Lil Gun compared to H110, internet-reading magnum users have been shying away from the powder. While Bob postulated that the higher heat he perceived from Lil Gun and it's higher nitroglycerin content may be the cause, I don't think his advice constituted a thorough evaluation of the factors contributing to increased erosion. Therefore, let us consider what makes a propellant more erosive and whether Lil Gun is, in fact, more erosive than other powders with similar performance.

Propellant erosivity is commonly understood to function through three channels: thermal, chemical, and mechanical. The results of semi-emperical correlation studies by Dr. Lawton of the Royal Military College of Science at Cranfield have suggested that in the absence of changes in propellant gas composition, a 10% increase in the maximum temperature results in an increase in erosion of 250%.[1].

The contribution of temperature in erosion must be understood properly if we are to consider any kind of effective mitigation. When a gun is fired, the surface of the bore might reach temperatures well over 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for a few milliseconds, but it quickly cools to a fraction of that temperature after less than a second. The idea of letting a gun "cool off" between shots or even Bob's observation that the gun was too hot to touch have very little to do with the temperatures that cause erosion. The temperatures that are relevant to erosion are measured in thousands of degrees and they only affect a very thin layer of metal on the surface of the bore. This thin layer of metal becomes a "heat-affected zone." Whether you wait a few milliseconds or hours between shots won't have much effect on whether this heat-affected zone is produced. But the maximum flame temperature this area is subjected to can accelerate erosion. That flame temperature is not so much a product of the rate of fire, but of the specific heat of the propellant. That is not to say that the rate of fire cannot increase erosion in the case of a machine gun for example, but that simply slowing the rate of fire does not mitigate thermal erosion in the heat-affected zone.

Reducing the propellant's flame temperature can provide a significant reduction in thermal erosion, but the propellant's specific energy is a direct function of its flame temperature. Consider if Lil Gun is a hot powder, meaning it has a high flame temperature, it also has a high specific energy. Indeed, it delivers high performance in muzzle velocity of projectiles with lower pressure than many of its competitors. In fact, in a number of .357 loads we will need substantially more IMR 4227 and higher pressure to obtain the same projectile muzzle velocities as reduced-loads of Lil Gun. Those increased charges will, in turn, produce more heat. In other words, energy pretty much comes with heat and there's not a lot of heat-free energy. In fact, the powder profiles in Quick Load list the heat of explosion / potential for Lil Gun at 4090 kJ/kg. IMR4227 is 4040 and H110 is 4110. So the notion that Lil Gun is more erosive because it's hotter isn't very instructive. Sure, a small charge of Bullseye is going to result in less heat and less erosion than a case stuffed full of Lil Gun, but it's also going to produce a lot less muzzle energy. We haven't learned anything other than magnum loads erode barrels faster than wimp loads.

But there are two other channels by which erosion happens: chemical and mechanical. If the gas species resulting from the combustion of Lil Gun were more erosive than other propellants like IMR 4227 or H110, then the additional erosion observed with Lil Gun might be occurring through a chemical channel. Chemical channel erosion has been studied by both empirical analysis of experimental firings and through study of the chemical reaction pathways that influence erosion.

Dr. J. Kimura's research published by the American Defense Preparedness Association shows the result of his work to compare the relative contribution of different gas species to gun barrel erosion: CO2 > CO > H2O > H2 > 0 > N2

He also described two different processes: first, lower melting-point compounds, easily eroded by thermal or mechanical means are generated in surface reactions between the gas and bore materials. Second, radial diffusion of gas deeper into the bore material results in interstitial atoms in the lattice of the steel, causing increased brittleness and susceptibility to erosion. This latter process creates a Chemically-Affected Zone which can be as much as tens of microns deep. Erosion of the CAZ can accelerate through oxidation, carburization, hydrogen erosion, embrittlement and cracking.

I don't have the results of mass spectrometry analysis of the gas species produced by Lil Gun vs. H110, but Bob's theory was that the additional nitroglycerin content of Lil Gun was responsible for the increased erosion observed with its use. He postulated it was occuring as thermal erosion, but if this was instead caused by chemical rather than thermal erosion, then we would expect to see more carbon and especially more hydrogen gas constituents in the propellant. But nitroglycerin has only nitrogen and oxygen. Nitrogen gas was even determined by Kimura to have a protective effect. Thus if Lil Gun's content is 10% nitroglycerin, it should have 10% less hydrogen and carbon than a totally gun-cotton based propellant like IMR 4227. In fact, because nitroglycerin has a higher specific energy than nitrocellulose, Lil Gun will have even less hydrogen and carbon for charges of equal energy.

Mechanical erosion is primarily caused by the shear force introduced by sliding friction of the projectile that can remove material, particularly from a cracked, degraded or thermally-softened surface. Mechanical erosion also includes the momentum of of the propellant gas flow with any solid particles entrained within it, resulting in abrasion, sweeping and washing actions. Blow-by of high-pressure propellant gas past the gas-check or driving-band during firing can create jetting, and erosive flow. However, because the effects of mechanical erosion are primarily due to properties of the interface between the projectile and bore, we would not expect to see a dramatic difference with the only variable being the propellant unless the cause of the difference was either thermal or chemical.

Let me state that I admire Bob Baker for taking the time to investigate Lil Gun by conducting his own experiments with a test barrel. I'd like to see more of that kind of inquisitiveness and less simple repetition of something read on the internet. When I heard about Lil Gun, I ordered 4 pounds of it. I'm afraid I can't promise to satisfy anyone's curiosity but my own, but inquiring minds want to know.

[1]. Lawton, B. (1984) Thermal and Chemical Effects of Gun Barrel Wear, in 8th International Symposium on Ballistics, Orlando, United States

[2] Kimura, J.-I. International ballistics symposium and exhibition; 16th, BALLISTICS'96; 1996; San Francisco; CA in BALLISTICS -INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM-; 1; 307-316
 
I've been using Lil'Gun in .357 Magnum loads with 180 and 185 gr. gas checked loads for my Marlin rifles, with great results. In fact, getting an average of 1,710 fps with the 185 gr. RNFP-GC bullet from the little carbine, and excellent accuracy, has made it my favorite full power load for those rifles. I don't have a bore scope, but looking into the chamber with a bright light doesn't show me any erosion visible to the naked eye. I know that's not a scientific conclusion, but it's the best I've got. With heavy bullets, Lil'Gun excels, at least in the rifles.

My next experiment with it is going to be with .32 H&R Magnum in my two Single Sixes. I've read some impressive data for this caliber with it, so I'm going to give it try when I get caught up with some other projects (and the elk is in the freezer).

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I have shot a couple pounds worth of Lil Gun up with 40 grain bullets in .22 Hornet loads in a single shot Savage rifle. Nothing bad looking in the barrel I can see with my naked eye either. Rifle is as accurate as ever.
 
Thank you for very informative write up!

I have been using lil gun in 300 blk for my deer loads with 125 ballistic tips was concerned reading the interwebs. This alleviates some of my concern on what it will do to my AR gas system.

Heck, I might even go ahead and load some .357s for the Rossi 92 with lil gun after reading this.
 
Lil-Gun has never been a problem with rifles. Except that they heat up a lot faster than other powders. You do not have the hot gases escaping at the cylinder air gap like you do in a revolver.

You can test your revolvers if you want but it will NEVER see my Custom Python.
 
With heavy bullets, Lil'Gun excels, at least in the rifles.

Lil-Gun has never been a problem with rifles. Except that they heat up a lot faster than other powders. You do not have the hot gases escaping at the cylinder air gap like you do in a revolver.

Both of the above are true from my experience. Was a time when Lil' Gun was supposed to be the holy grail for magnum revolver powder. Now you don't see much of anything written about it on these types of gun forums. Gotta be something to it. While Bob Baker's comments and tests may have influenced many folks, those of us that actually used it much, found the high heat it produced in our firearms very irritating at the range when shooting for periods of time. Like many others I jumped on the Lil' Gun bandwagon with it's touts of super high velocities, while producing very low pressure. Figured it would be a great way to take it easy on my revolvers while producing high velocity hunting type loads. Thing was, I found I couldn't shoot but a few rounds outta any of my revolvers or handgun caliber carbines without them becoming uncomfortable to handle. I also saw little increase in velocity and did not get the accuracy with it from my guns, that I got with W295/H110 and IMR4227. Could be I never used heavy for caliber bullets in my revolvers and handgun caliber carbine and thus didn't take advantage of it where it shines. That said, I actually gave up on it before I ever heard of Bob's suspicions of excessive premature forcing cone erosion. Going back and looking at my forcing cones, I do see erosion, but it's hard for me to tell iffin it came from Lil' Gun or not. I have not seen much, if any, increase in the damage since I quit using it tho, altho most of those same revolvers have seen thousands of more rounds thru them. Comes down to any unnecessary damage to my revolvers is not something I want to see, even if that amount, or the risk of it is minimal. Not when there are other options out there that perform well for me in the applications I need. Others are free to feel differently.
 
Now that sums that up.

but

Erosivity is a measure of the potential ability of soil, regolith, or other weathered material to be eroded by rain, wind, or surface runoff.
 
That's a good point. Perhaps the correct term would be "erosiveness." I took "erosivity" from a number of paper's published on the subject:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0894177710000075
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/8a6f/9478b307f64a1014ed02e4f8476d1e71da2b.pdf
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a86a/1cf40c12ea9d5d3e06a1e296a51cc2686f7c.pdf
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a114964.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a106081.pdf

But that brings up another good question: How much of the erosion is the erosivity of the gun barrel, and how much is a result of the erosiveness of the propellant? In big guns, low-erosivity barrel and liner materials have been studied extensively. In small arms, we've mostly seen chromium lining in any scale, but if one saw a high level of erosion in the barrels they were producing or using, one might want to investigate whether a change in material could effect a better result.
 
I've been so well satisfied with 296/110 I guess I've never even thought about trying anything else.

My 125 JHP loads do 1625+ and my cast lead 158 "pumpkin rollers" do ~1450. I have a 7 1/2 inch .44 magnum if I need more power.
 
I load with H110 too and I get similar velocities with it. So why is Lil Gun appealing? Two reasons I can think of. First: I get 158 grain bullets at the same velocity as max loads of H110 but with 36% less pressure. It's not about more power and bigger magnums, but about all the power of .357 and less pressure. Then, when you go up to heavier bullets like 170, 180, 200 gr., Lil Gun can offer even more -- as much as 100 fps more than H110 while still making as much as 13% less maximum pressure.

The second reason is it meters a lot nicer in an auto measure. H110 tends to leak more than other powders and it's always jumping out of the cases when the auto-indexer spins around. Lil Gun behaves better.
 
I'll take AA #9 or N-110 over Lil Gun any day. Does all I need and doesn't heat up the gun. I used up my pound of Lil Gun in .44 Mag, but won't be buying anymore.
 
I keep a pound of Lil Gun for hunting/woods loads but dont use it for regular loads. I too find it heats up the cylinder very fast.
 
I read the article some years back about the owner of Freedom Arms warning about the use of Lil Gun powder and describing the throat erosion. That is enough of a warning for me not to use it in my FA or any of my guns. The excessive erosion however only seems to be a problem in revolvers, not Contender type pistols or rifles. There are plenty enough other powder choices out there for me not to chance it. H-110 and 2400 suit me just fine.
 
I load with H110 too and I get similar velocities with it. So why is Lil Gun appealing? Two reasons I can think of. First: I get 158 grain bullets at the same velocity as max loads of H110 but with 36% less pressure. It's not about more power and bigger magnums, but about all the power of .357 and less pressure. Then, when you go up to heavier bullets like 170, 180, 200 gr., Lil Gun can offer even more -- as much as 100 fps more than H110 while still making as much as 13% less maximum pressure.

The second reason is it meters a lot nicer in an auto measure. H110 tends to leak more than other powders and it's always jumping out of the cases when the auto-indexer spins around. Lil Gun behaves better.

You know, after you wrote his I went down and loaded some .300AAc on my Dillon. This load (21.0C grns) is only about 1/16th from the case mouth. I even figured I might have to charge the cases using one of my Harrell's due to the volume. I paid attention and "dang" if you're not right. Indexed like I normally would and didn't lose a kernel! Some kind of magic "cling". I'm surprised the marketing guys didn't pick up on it.

That alone is enough for me to use it over H110 at least in .300AAC.
 
I load with H110 too and I get similar velocities with it. So why is Lil Gun appealing? Two reasons I can think of. First: I get 158 grain bullets at the same velocity as max loads of H110 but with 36% less pressure. It's not about more power and bigger magnums, but about all the power of .357 and less pressure. Then, when you go up to heavier bullets like 170, 180, 200 gr., Lil Gun can offer even more -- as much as 100 fps more than H110 while still making as much as 13% less maximum pressure.

This pressure difference was the reason so many folks jumped on the Lil' Gun bandwagon. Many of the newer pressures shown are closer. Several years ago, there used to be a big difference on Hodgdon's website in pressures created at similar velocities, with similar projectiles in .44 mag. Pressure shown for Lil Gun was substantially lower than similar velocity ammo stuffed with H110/W296. The newer info now shows Lil' Gun's pressure higher than H110/W296. While they still show a huge difference in the .357 pressures, I know they have not updated those recipes for a while. Where the change comes from I dunno. Different testing equipment maybe?

But how does one get more velocity from less pressure? Doesn't Newton's law apply here? Is it the pressure curve or the higher heat that gives the higher velocity with less pressure or is it just that the pressure curve is difficult to measure in Lil' Gun?

Again, I dunno. But between Bob Baker's claims and the claims from others, along with my own experiences of the excessive heat it creates, I don't have a place for it on my bench anymore. Just too many better options out there, especially since I seek the most accurate ammo, not necessarily the fastest. Others are free to use it in their guns if they wish.
 
But how does one get more velocity from less pressure? Doesn't Newton's law apply here?

Peak pressure is peak pressure. Total area under the pressure curve is what creates velocity. It's quite common for a powder - typically a slower powder - to be able to achieve a particular velocity at lower peak pressures than a faster powder. The slower powder isn't producing "more velocity from less pressure" - it's just spreading the pressure out a little differently so that there is more total pressure, but less at the very highest peak.
 
Both good points fellows, but I scratched it off my list. It definitely heats things up. I try to stay away from high nitro content powders in general.
 
Peak pressure is peak pressure. Total area under the pressure curve is what creates velocity. It's quite common for a powder - typically a slower powder - to be able to achieve a particular velocity at lower peak pressures than a faster powder. The slower powder isn't producing "more velocity from less pressure" - it's just spreading the pressure out a little differently so that there is more total pressure, but less at the very highest peak.

Yes, I know. But when one looks at burn rate charts, Lil' Gun is typically rated as a tad faster than H110/W296, so it must not be significantly "spreading" it's pressure curve, more than H110/W296 because of it's relative burn rate. Now I also know that different applications can change burn rates of some powders slightly. Still the difference between the slowness/fastness of Lil' Gun and H110/W296 is insignificant. So then what is it that changes the pressure curve(and peak pressure) so significantly if it is that curve at all? Does the high heat that is created by Lil' Gun the cause for the erosion or is it more a mechanical thing? Nobody, including the OP really has the answer, just anecdotal conclusions. I believe that Bob Bakers theory on the Nitroglycerin content of Lil' Gun comes from the idea that Nitroglycerin requires less pressure for the same continuous burn, and requires well designed deterrents to help keep the powder from being way too sensitive for gun longevity. Forcing cone erosion is different than top strap flame cutting because it generally is caused by more mechanical abrasion. Some claim, faster powders are the answer to diminish forcing cone erosion, but they do not do well with heavy bullets at high velocities, which is what many of us are looking for from our magnum revolvers. Again, regardless of the cause, there is more than anecdotal evidence that Lil' Gun is hard on forcing cones, more so than other slow powders. Everyone I know that uses Lil' Gun has experienced the higher heat it creates in their firearms. While I know that happiness is a warn gun barrel, revolvers with frames and carbines with barrels, that are too hot to touch after even just a short time at the range, does not make me happy. The fact that Lil' Gun creates so much more heat and has been shown to create excessive forcing cone erosion, makes me think the two are related.
 
But when one looks at burn rate charts,
Don't look at burn rate charts for anything but static pressure burn.
Progressivity and Energy density drive the pressure curve, not what anyone sees in a "Burn Rate" chart.
Look to QuickLoad for the kind of data (including pressure curve) that might be comparatively useful.
 
Look to QuickLoad for the kind of data (including pressure curve) that might be comparatively useful.


So then what info does QuickLoad give us about Lil' Gun to help explain the higher heat produced and the increase in forcing cone erosion?
 
The issue was burn rate.

That said, Chemical Energy ~ > Heat -- flame impingement on angled surface/narrow cutting channel/gap in revolvers not withstanding.
W296v-Lil-Gun-357-sm.jpg
 
I used to shoot with a guy in another town on occasion and he was one of these who tried to push everything to the max. He ran an experiment with Lil Gun and he claimed that when pushing lead and coated lead in a .357 and .44 mag he had dug some bullets out of a dirt backstop that had actually melted the base of the bullet and left lead streaks in the barrel. I didn't actually see this nor the bullets and would bet knowing him that the loads he was shooting was definitely over maximum published data. All I can say from the little bit I loaded in .357 Mag, I didn't see any real difference in velocity in Lil Gun and H110 and it does get a cylinder and barrel hot in a hurry. I threw mine away. I saw no need to use it. Something that hot can't be good for a gun. Might not hurt it, but I saw no sense in taking a chance.
 
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