Erroneous trophy benchmarks on various critters.

[H&Hhunter]

Every year I talk to folks who come out and want to hunt for a "huge" trophy critter of some kind. When I ask them what they consider a "huge" trophy I hear a lot of misconceptions about what makes a huge trophy critter. Here are a couple of the more common ones.

Mule deer and the myth of the 30" spread. A 30" spread on a mule deer buck is a wide spread, no two ways about it. But a mule deer obtains it's score from having deep, long double forks per side, good mass and scoreable points. I've seen 24" spread, yet tall bucks that will be tickling the book and 30" wide flat horned bucks that won't hardly score at all.

The 10 point whitetail. To me a 140" 8 point is a far more impressive deer than a 120" 10 point. Total point do not make the trophy score on a whitetail.

Pronghorn and the fabled 16" horn, yes it's a horn, not an antler. A pronghorn buck derives it's score primarily from it's 4 mass measurements per horn and it's cutters. While length is important a 12" or 13" tall buck that has heavy mass and high set cutters that allows for three mass measurements under the cutters will seriously outscore an average mass and average cutter length 16" buck.

A 6x6 elk seems to be the green horns standard trophy requirement. A 6x6 alone doesn't mean anything trophy wise. There a lot of immature rag horn 6x6's running around. You've got to add beam length, tine length and mass before that elk starts to score. I'll take a thick, mature 5x5 any day over a rag horn 6x6.

The 8' mountain lion. An 8' mountain lion measured from the nose to the tip of the tail is going to be a large bodied cat. If he's got a skinny head he isn't going to score at all. A cat that scores well is going to have a large broad head. Bears are the same deal.

Now with this being said. I am not in any way suggesting that you should not go after the animal that tickles your fancy. Some of my favorite "trophies" are freak horns and just cool looking smaller critters. I shot a 7'11" mountain lion with a pin head once. He looks mighty impressive none the less. What I am saying is that when you ask a seasoned hunter or guide to show you a trophy you two might be speaking different languages. The experienced guy will most likely be speaking in total score not fabled and "meaningless" (score wise) benchmarks.

 

[BigBore44]

H&H,
I agree completely. But I will add that a "trophy" like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. A record book animal isn't anything I have ever felt the need to achieve. Maybe someday. I am one of the "freak horn" guys as well. Anything unique or different.

 

[H&Hhunter]

H&H,
I agree completely. But I will add that a "trophy" like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. A record book animal isn't anything I have ever felt the need to achieve. Maybe someday. I am one of the "freak horn" guys as well. Anything unique or different.

Agreed 100%.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

A key thing you forgot H&H- a symmetrical rack. A balanced rack is just more appealing to the eye. I've seen 70 inch moose that looked like a random mess, and 50 inchers that where a joy to see.

 

[BigBore44]

Jim,
I believe that depends on the animal and the hunter. But I don't know what a 70" mess looks like. But I'd probably put an arrow or a bullet through its heart. Large and symmetrical is absolutely appealing to my eye. But large and nontypical will get my vote of the two. I don't know how moose are scored. Suppose I can google that. But score means nothing to me. Now, if you were guiding me and we happened upon a big bull, I would rely on your knowledge to tell me if you think we could do better. But if "Mr. 70" Mess" is standing in front of me, you might have to knock me out to keep me from pulling the trigger.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Of course no one would pass up a 70 inch moose here. That's front page news. But heres a 50"rack that's balanced. The thread was what do you call a trophy. It's not all about size.
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[Captcurt]

Never killed a big one.

I have had the opportunity to hunt whitetails for over 50 years and have taken a few hundred. Never killed what I consider a big one. I do have a few that I consider trophies though. My first legal buck taken when I was 18 hangs on the wall of my living room. Every time I look at it I remember every detail of the hunt. He is a 6-point with a 16" spread. 21" main beams and 9" G2's. To most people he is a 6-point. To me a trophy.

Then there is the 8-point hanging next to him. Perfect rack, nice height, good mass scoring about 120. What makes him a trophy is the 4 hour tracking job it took to find him. I fell apart when I saw his rack and pulled my shot. They go a long ways when you paunch them.

There is a 13-pointer I hunted for 4 days in 30-40 degree weather with 30 MPH winds. This is another 16" spread with 9" G2's and G3's. The buck was a 2 year old and I would love to have seen what he would have looked like at 5 years. I took him before Arkansas passed the three point rule and actually thought that he was a forkhorn when I shot him. I was halfway to him before I realized how big he was. Big? No, Trophy, Yes. He is to me.

 

[TimSr]

I simply don't really get the whole "trophy" aspect that implies it's some type of competition. I have several mounts that I view more as "souvenirs" to memorialize the hunt than the trophies. I have a couple of nice whitetail bucks, by my favorite deer mount is a doe simply because of that hunt, and the more extreme challenges I had to overcome to take her. I've been working for a few years now to take a real Ohio WILD hog on public land, and when I do, it will be mounted, no matter what the size, simply because it is such a huge challenge in Ohio.

My son's first deer, a small button buck, was also mounted. For me it's much more about memorializing the hunt than showing a bigger one than anyone else.

 

[BigBore44]

Jim,Capt,Tim,
I couldn't agree more with you. A "trophy" to some is all about making a record book. While to others it simply memorializes a special hunt. I have no mounts on my wall. I'd go broke if I mounted all my memorable hunts. Triples with my bow on whitetails on high pressure public land. Triple on feral hogs on public land with my XD45. Tracking my biggest buck with my best friend overnight , building a fire, and sleeping in the woods with just our hunting clothes in 38 degree weather and not recovering the buck till the next day. And the list goes on and on. But.... I'm not going to pass a record book animal if one walks out.

 

[Art Eatman]

A bunch of us leased a deer-hunt ranch for right at ten years. We always had a low-key "My buck's bigger'n yours" joking sort of thing going, but it didn't really matter. My hunting was always just for fun and meat. Big antlers? Sure, but not the be-all and end-all of the hunt. Campfire bull-sessions, sneaky-snaking around trying to outwit Bambi, that sort of thing.

Don't guess I've ever been interested in bass tournaments, either.

 

[desidog]

I guess if i were concerned with scores and numbers i'd probably stay home and watch football instead of go out hunting.

 

[buck460XVR]

Jim,Capt,Tim,
But.... I'm not going to pass a record book animal if one walks out.

I don't think any legitimate hunter would, unless he was hoping to let someone else take it. Like a son/daughter/grandchild. That's kinda where i have gotten to as of late. Years ago it was all about me and getting an animal. Not always the biggest, but being successful and having a quality hunt. Same with musky fishing. Pounding the water from sunup to sundown and being depressed having to look at the lake without being on it. Nowadays, I'd rather sit on stand with one of the boys and point out a buck to them to shoot, or just run the boat on structure so they can concentrate on casting. Even when I did hunt hard, altho I strived to get the biggest, the quality of the hunt was always the first and foremost after I got out of stage two. Some of my hardest and most memorable hunts ended up with me coming home empty handed or an animal far from the record books. My biggest buck was shot on private land and was not really a hunt, but a shoot. Many small basket bucks on public land gave me much more of a hunt and meant more to me personally. But that is why I hunt. That is why I enjoy turkey hunting so much, because of the interaction with animals, even during a fall hunt and it's a hen that goes down. It's generally a hunt, not just shooting an animal someone else finds for you or has been trained to eat at the feeder. I like doing my own scouting and prep work.......paying someone else to do that for me just seems foolish, even if it meant a Boone and Crockett/Pope and Young on the wall. Over the years I have seen far too many folks do things that were illegal and unethical because of the peer pressure to take a big animal, or just an animal at all, so they have bragging rights or aren't the only one in a group with a tag left over. I've also seen hunting turned into big business where deer are ranched like cattle, with owners paying tens of thousands of dollars for genetics, just so someone can come and shoot a trophy. It may be a trophy on the wall, but it ain't much of a trophy hunt, at least not to me. Still, I have no problem with folks that do. Hunting should always be for you and your standards. You should hunt to prove to yourself you are a hunter, not to try and convince others you are.

One of the things that bothers me so much with modern hunting is the pessure we put on young and new hunters to only take "big" animals. Years ago around here deer were so scarce and so dependent on natural feed that large 8 and 10 pointers were extremely rare and the norm was a fork or a six and you were proud to have taken that. Nowadays with QDM and supplemental feeding and selective harvesting on private land, one is shamed if they take anything less that 16''. Kids and new hunters are not taught to read the woods, know how to interpret a topo may to find funnels, or to know what sign is fresh and relative. They are taught to sit in the box blind next to the heater and wait for the ol "uncle Sam" buck to come along and feed on the corn thrown out.

This picture has always been my image of hunting. It is of the most famous Bow Hunter ever to grace the deer woods with a stick and a string, with what he considered a trophy at that time, because of the deer herd and the method used. It is all about the size of the hunt in the buck, not the size of the buck in the hunt. How many of today's "Sportsman Channel" hunters would be caught dead with a picture of this "immature" buck that should have been left to walk?

 

[rodwha]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MchhtofbgJI

I've mostly just hunted for the enjoyment and the meat, as well as hanging out in the evenings with beer around the fire and coffee around 4:45 setting out while your hands, feet, and nose ask you if you are serious. I often brought home does.

I've been thinking I'd like a European mount if I ever shot something worthy, but I've also been thinking I'd like to purposely set out for a big 'ole stinky hog with long chompers for a wall!

 

[Kingcreek]

I've shot many trophies over the years but not one in the record book.
Most were just unique experiences or special challenges or just plain fun with good friends and memorable in some way.
A good friend of mine asked me if he could sit in my deer stand since he hadn't been seeing anything from his. He had some serious health problems and couldn't physically manage most stands. I told him sure go ahead, I hadn't been seeing much either. That night he arrowed a 163 score 8 point, almost perfectly symetrical with only 3" total deductions. It was a big mature buck I had never seen before and was shot 100 yards from my back back door. It ran 40 yards and died right next to my truckpath/firebreak. Because of his health, my friend was never able to hunt again. I was jealous for about 10 minutes but atleast he put it in his will that it comes back to me if he passes before me.

 

[sage5907]

Two words or phrases that have always amazed me when it comes to hunting are "nice" and "has character." Nice almost means small or young, and has character usually means old, beat up or ugly. I like the words big, pretty and mature.

 

[Panfisher]

I prefer trophy hunts to trophy animals, I don't guess I have ever killed a record book deer, heck never even measured or scored one. But I have several trophies, some are euro-mounts (2 for wife and one for my son, but they are still trophies to me, as I was with them on the hunt), some are nothing more than antler plates cut off and lying in my shop. One of a little 4 point from a couple seasons ago stands out, I had been diagnosed with cancer, was due to start some heavy duty chemo, didn't have any idea if I would ever get to deer hunt again or not. Just as it was starting to snow on day two of the season, this little buck and 4 does walked up to within 50 yards of me and were giving me the evil eye, one round of handloaded .223 from my AR through the heart, it ran about 50 yards, jumped the fence in the exact same place my wifes deer had the day before, and died with a few feet of where hers had died. Field dressed it in some slow falling wet heavy flakes of snow, not knowing what the future held for me. Now if something like that isn't a trophy I don't know what would be, for me anyway. Lots of trophy hunts I have had the priveledge of of being involved in.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I have mixed feelings about the whole deal. In this area you can kill as many doe as you want to. So, I haven't seen much point in killing a buck. You would think that if you let enough of those little basket rack eight pointers walk that next year or two you would run in to something really nice. But, it rarely seems to happen. Always considered that somebody else shot them. But, after having a huge lease for 20 years with two game wardens as members who patrolled it all the time I do not think that is the case anymore. Seems like in this area 120 or 130 is about what you are going to get with the occasional rare monster which would be 160 or so in this neck of the woods. Could be they become 100 % nocturnal, but even then they would show up on camera. So, I'm not sure that passing on these bucks accomplishes much.

 

[Bobson]

My brother took this mulie last year. I've never hunted them but when I saw the pic, I thought it was an absolute behemoth. What do you think, H&H? I asked and he said it was never measured, just as an aside.

 

[H&Hhunter]

My brother took this mulie last year. I've never hunted them but when I saw the pic, I thought it was an absolute behemoth. What do you think, H&H? I asked and he said it was never measured, just as an aside.

That is one of those narrow tall bucks that I was speaking of. It's hard to tell from the angle of the photo but my initial impression is that this buck would score about 175" to 180ish. He's got medium mass, great rear forks and okay front forks. He loses some score on those small eye guards and total spread. And he's a great buck. Way better than average. There are very few units that I hunt where you would pass on a buck of this caliber.

He is not a "behemoth" as far as mule deer bucks go. But he's definitely better than average. Behemoth mule deer start about 40 inches bigger than that guy.

 

[H&Hhunter]

So Bobsons deer picture brings up a good point. There are hunters in fact many hunters who would pass that buck because he's narrow. But would shoot a far inferior buck that had a wider spread. That is the fable of the 30" mule deer. My OP was never intended to judge or comment to the validity of "trophy" hunting. Rather it was speaking to the fact that a lot of "trophy" hunters pass up really good high scoring critters due to urban legend and general ignorance in regards to the trophy that are after.

 

[ZeroJunk]

If an animal faces you spread is the first and easiest dimension to determine. If there is thick cover and limited time the animal may be on the ground before you get a true picture. It is not unusual to see an elk or deer for a few seconds and never see him again. Having the time to study a rack is a luxury. In the excitement that initial judgment can be wrong. I doubt there are many actual trophy hunters out there who do not know the arithmetic involved. But, they might not have the experience to make that judgment in an instant.

 

[H&Hhunter]

If an animal faces you spread is the first and easiest dimension to determine. If there is thick cover and limited time the animal may be on the ground before you get a true picture. It is not unusual to see an elk or deer for a few seconds and never see him again. Having the time to study a rack is a luxury. In the excitement that initial judgment can be wrong. I doubt there are many actual trophy hunters out there who do not know the arithmetic involved. But, they might not have the experience to make that judgment in an instant.

Which is why if your are seriously trophy hunting trying to put one in the books. You don't take snap shots. It's s process and different style of hunting.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

If an animal faces you spread is the first and easiest dimension to determine. If there is thick cover and limited time the animal may be on the ground before you get a true picture. It is not unusual to see an elk or deer for a few seconds and never see him again. Having the time to study a rack is a luxury. In the excitement that initial judgment can be wrong. I doubt there are many actual trophy hunters out there who do not know the arithmetic involved. But, they might not have the experience to make that judgment in an instant.

My biggest concern is if it's legal. That can be very difficult with sheep as Only with a perfect side view can I tell a legal full curl ram.

 

[Bobson]

Thanks for the detailed response and kind words, H&H.

 

[CaptTripps]

I love to fish. I work only so I can enjoy being outdoors. Some of my most fond fishing memories are of the fish I've helped over people hook and land. For me, putting people on their first fish, their largest brown trout or the biggest bass they've ever seen, thats what makes a trophy for me.