Most challeging hunts in North America.

[wombat13]

Wombat,

Thanks for bringing this up. First off we hunt on vast tracks of public land just for that reason, we do not like to be poor neighbors and we try to avoid private lands at all costs. However it has happened in the past where our dogs have trespassed.

First off we'd never shoot a treed animal on private land that is poaching. So what we do if it occurs is try to gain permission from the land owner to go retrieve the dogs and be on our way. Most folks out here are understanding and intelligent enough to know that sometimes this happens and that a trespassing by hounds in pursuit is not intentional. Proper etiquette demands and a sensible person who finds hounds treeing on his property will simply pull the dogs off tree and tie them or hold them back allowing the the treed animal to escape and then either let them go after the animal has departed your property or simply call the number that we have engraved on every dog's collar and we'll come get them, or in our area most folks know us so they'll either bring the dogs out to the kennel latter or inform somebody who has a phone and they'll call or radio us and we'll pick up the dogs. Which invariably ends up in a friendly cup of coffee and a couple of hours worth of good natured bull session. These are the same ranchers for whom we've dropped everything to chase down and remove a calf killing lion or bear when needed and with whom we have a strong bond and working relationship. This is how it usually goes down, and always goes down when the men you are dealing with are salt of earth good folks living off the land who understood how things work in remote country.

Improper etiquette is going into spaz mode and panicking if you find a pack of baying hounds on your property. The WORST thing you can do is start shouting at the hounds or shooting into the air, all that will do is energize the hounds and make them more aggressive at the base of the tree. Well .....I take that back the WORST thing you can do is shoot the dogs as it may well get you killed or beaten severely in some areas of the country. I've heard of some guys coming uncorked over his prize hunting dog being shot. Killing another mans dogs is a highly hateful and hotly emotional event and it is not advised. A good lion dog can sell for upwards of $15,000 and I guarantee shooting it is more trouble than you are willing to need in your life. But most of all it's just plain stupid and unnecessary when the solution is so simple and harmless.

Thanks for the clarifications. My response in a situation when hounds were "trespassing" on my property would depend on a number of factors:

1. How long does it take for the owners to get their dogs/contact me to ask permission? My wife is petrified of dogs and she shouldn't have to be in fear on her own property.

2. What was the attitude of the owner when he retrieved his dogs. "Very sorry, won't let it happen again" would go over a lot better than "stuff happens" or some kind of superior attitude. What would probably work best is if the owner invited me to come along on a hunt.

3. Does the owner tell any lies such as "I got permission from the owner" or "I didn't know the property was posted"? Any kind of lie would result in an immediate call to the Sheriff for trespassing.

My biggest concern in all of this is safety and my family's feeling of well being. If my wife or children were scared more than once by a pack of dogs they wouldn't want to go to our camp and that means I wouldn't go to the camp as often.

Finally, I hope that we all agree that anyone who becomes "uncorked" enough to do violence because their dog was shot on someone else's property deserves the prison term they are likely to get.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Wolverines! woohoo!!

seriously, good luck.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Wombat,

Is this even really a concern for you? Are there hounds men actively running dogs in your area? If so maybe you should get to know a few of the locals who do it, they can answer your questions far better than I as I'm sure they have different ways of doing things than I do as the hunting would be entirely different in that area.

Your wife has an irrational phobia of dogs for whatever reason. I'm sorry to hear that. But lets try and introduce a bit of reality into this. You state that you care for your families safety as any man should. Hunting dogs do not present a safety issue to your family. They hunt animals and when they are hunting they ignore people for the most part even when they are treed. They bark and bay but are not dangerous to people. So any fear of these dogs in irrational. That's the simple reality. The dogs would pose no danger to you or your family. And I've already described to you how to make them quit baying, simply tie or hold them off until the critter departs your land and then either keep them or let them loose they'll soon be gone. It really as simple as that. No drama needed.

Finally and obviously if somebody commits murder they should be justly punished. All I am trying to convey to you is that people become emotionally bonded with their dogs both working dogs and pets. If you are a student of history you'll find that more than one shoot out/range war has been started over a shot dog. It's simply not a smart practice. Anytime you involve guns and hot emotions bad stuff can happen.

 

[wankerjake]

At least as far as Arizona is concerned, coues deer is a tough hunt. I've heard it referred to as the "poor man's sheep hunt" more than once. They can get into some nasty country but it's fun to go after them.

I would love to hunt behind dogs for bear or lion, looks awesome. I'd love to see some dogs work first hand. Once while archery deer hunting I could hear hounds chasing something down the thick, nasty canyon from me. It was way too thick and steep to see down there. I could hear whatever it was they were chasing and guess it was a bear by the amount of noise it made. Could hear it climbing a tree at one point. It didn't stay there though, it came down. The dogs baying kept getting closer and closer as they approached the spot where the animal treed briefly. After that the baying got further and further away. It was in one of the larger tributaries of Oak Creek Canyon. Nasty, nasty country. I can't even imagine how the hunters were following that animal. It took them on a run for their money, I'll tell you that!

We found a lost hound out there one year too. Good looking dog, I don't know my hound breeds. Owner was glad to get her back

 

[H&Hhunter]

I can't even imagine how the hunters were following that animal. It took them on a run for their money, I'll tell you that!

Excitement is what keeps you going at first but after a while it's just sweat and determination. The really cool thing from a dog owners perspective is listening to the hounds and being able to hear and know your individual dogs from their voices and knowing what they are doing and that they are doing it right. Knowing that your hard work and time in training have paid off are a hugely gratifying experience.

 

[ZeroJunk]

When I was a kid we always had beagles. They usually just ran loose. We didn't have AC and in the summertime I can remember being sung to sleep by them cold trailing a rabbit. No deer around here back then.


Anyhow, I remember when I first started hunting with my father. I had a single barrel shotgun and I shot a rabbit when we jumped it. My father was a little perturbed and I didn't understand why.

But, I soon found out it was more about the dogs. I know some dog hunters that don't even carry a gun.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I know some dog hunters that don't even carry a gun.

In NM we have a pursuit only season in which we can run our dogs. We will run and catch more often just run, but we don't kill, we take a picture and pull the dogs back and let the cat or bear go. For every animal I've killed or guided other hunters to a kill behind hounds I've let ten times that many go. Hound hunting is the only form of catch and release hunting there is.

 

[Art Eatman]

Then there is the intellectually challenging: Find and shoot the biggest whitetail buck in the pasture.

The deal is, you must first check out a whole bunch of bucks, which is a chore in itself. Then when you're satisfied that you've seen Ol' Biggie, you must then find him again in order to get a shot.

A big buck generally only makes one mistake in a season. If that mistake was when you first saw him during your survey--Hey, best luck, Bubba!

It's sort of a sour feeling when you shoot a "really nice buck" and then see his grandaddy wandering off, snickering at you.

 

[jbkebert]

I loved hearing our three beagles down in the creek bottoms. Nothing better we are considering getting another beagle now. I have made the mistake of showing my girls pictures of beagle pups.

 

[wombat13]

Wombat,

Is this even really a concern for you? Are there hounds men actively running dogs in your area? If so maybe you should get to know a few of the locals who do it, they can answer your questions far better than I as I'm sure they have different ways of doing things than I do as the hunting would be entirely different in that area.

Your wife has an irrational phobia of dogs for whatever reason. I'm sorry to hear that. But lets try and introduce a bit of reality into this. You state that you care for your families safety as any man should. Hunting dogs do not present a safety issue to your family. They hunt animals and when they are hunting they ignore people for the most part even when they are treed. They bark and bay but are not dangerous to people. So any fear of these dogs in irrational. That's the simple reality. The dogs would pose no danger to you or your family. And I've already described to you how to make them quit baying, simply tie or hold them off until the critter departs your land and then either keep them or let them loose they'll soon be gone. It really as simple as that. No drama needed.

Finally and obviously if somebody commits murder they should be justly punished. All I am trying to convey to you is that people become emotionally bonded with their dogs both working dogs and pets. If you are a student of history you'll find that more than one shoot out/range war has been started over a shot dog. It's simply not a smart practice. Anytime you involve guns and hot emotions bad stuff can happen.

I don't know yet if this is a real concern for me, since we just bought the property. I prefer to think ahead rather than be caught by surprise.

I am probably reading too much into your posts, but you seem to convey a common attitude among dog owners that it is the responsibility of people who don't own dogs to adjust their actions to accommodate other people's dogs. I see it the other way around. In a public area it is up to the dog owner to maintain control of their animal and keep it away from people who are afraid of it or just don't want to be jumped on and licked. I also expect that people will keep their animals off my property and will take responsibility for mistakes.

I also disagree that my wife's fear of dogs is irrational. Irrational means without reason or logic. A fear of butterflies is irrational. Dogs, on the the other hand, do bite and sometimes even turn on their owners. My wife is a physician and has seen too many people, particularly children who have been severely injured by dogs, frequently their beloved pet. None of the plastic surgeons we know own dogs, because they have sewn up so many dog bites on children's faces (kids often get bit on the face since their face is lower to the ground than adults). My wife may have a different evaluation of the probability that a dog is going to bite than you do, but her fear is not irrational.

Please don't get the impression that I hate dogs or dog owners. When neighbor's dogs have gotten loose I have taken the dogs back to their homes. For the most part dog owners are responsible, friendly people. Unfortunately, there are enough who aren't very responsible and who cop an attitude when you ask them to leash their dog that it leaves a sour taste.

Anyway, thanks for the information on hound hunting. I doubt I'll ever have to put it to use, but I also pay for fire insurance that I doubt I'll ever need.

 

[Art Eatman]

In the areas in Florida where hunting with dogs is allowed, it is the owner's responsibility to hunt in areas where trespass is unlikely (as in the Appalachicola National Forest, for instance) and the owner is fully responsible for any damages. The dogs must be identified by information on the collar.

SFAIK, the decline in the use of dogs in hunting is in large part due to the chopping up of large tracts of land into smaller segments, with suburban and exurban residential development exacerbating the problem.

 

[Feanor]

Improper etiquette is going into spaz mode and panicking if you find a pack of baying hounds on your property. The WORST thing you can do is start shouting at the hounds or shooting into the air, all that will do is energize the hounds and make them more aggressive at the base of the tree. Well .....I take that back the WORST thing you can do is shoot the dogs as it may well get you killed or beaten severely in some areas of the country. I've heard of some guys coming uncorked over his prize hunting dog being shot. Killing another mans dogs is a highly hateful and hotly emotional event and it is not advised. A good lion dog can sell for upwards of $15,000 and I guarantee shooting it is more trouble than you are willing to need in your life. But most of all it's just plain stupid and unnecessary when the solution is so simple and harmless.

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs, were you, or your vile ilk, to escalate such trespass into a threat of violence, such as "beating" or "murdering" a landowner exercising such lawful rights in my neck of the woods, you'd be joining the dogs.

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for the clarifications. My response in a situation when hounds were "trespassing" on my property would depend on a number of factors:

1. How long does it take for the owners to get their dogs/contact me to ask permission? My wife is petrified of dogs and she shouldn't have to be in fear on her own property.

2. What was the attitude of the owner when he retrieved his dogs. "Very sorry, won't let it happen again" would go over a lot better than "stuff happens" or some kind of superior attitude. What would probably work best is if the owner invited me to come along on a hunt.

3. Does the owner tell any lies such as "I got permission from the owner" or "I didn't know the property was posted"? Any kind of lie would result in an immediate call to the Sheriff for trespassing.

My biggest concern in all of this is safety and my family's feeling of well being. If my wife or children were scared more than once by a pack of dogs they wouldn't want to go to our camp and that means I wouldn't go to the camp as often.

Finally, I hope that we all agree that anyone who becomes "uncorked" enough to do violence because their dog was shot on someone else's property deserves the prison term they are likely to get.

Poltt hounds are notorious for trespassing, more so then just an average dogs inability to navigate, or discern property boundaries are at work here, they are relentless once upon the scent, and as a consequence there are frequently conflicts with private landowners, or often, we don't even know about the trespass until afterward.

Also, here in NW Wisconsin, they(hounders)do harvest bear from private property when it suits them, then remove the carcass to public land if need be to avoid discovery. I've had three such bears killed on my land in the last eleven years(NW blue hills of Rusk county).

There was a time when these men were much less bold, but as the tradition of hunting has contracted, the pursuit of "sport killing" with hounds has remained largely intact, which has given the impression that they are numerous, they are not. Don't let them obfuscate the danger that their hounds pose either, there's a reason why wolves kill them.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Poltt hounds are notorious for trespassing, more so then just an average dogs inability to navigate, or discern property boundaries are at work here,

So not only can dogs read and understand property boundaries but some can read better than others? Please explain.....

I'm guessing that if you are seeing more plott hounds around nit's because more people are using that breed in your area. It has nothing to do with other dogs being able to read your no trespassing signs.

Don't let them obfuscate the danger that their hounds pose either, there's a reason why wolves kill them.

This might just qualify as the single most incoherent statement and one of the greatest misunderstanding of animal behavior in the history of THR. If I am reading it right you are saying that wolves kill hounds because they pose a danger to......Who? Humans or wolves?

Wolves will kill any other canine they find in their hunting territory that is documented wolf behavior. Whether it's a hound dog or a poodle or a coyote makes no difference.

Take a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEB30KLpTMs

 

[DesertFox]

I'm a spot and stalk hunter. I do not hunt with dogs or over bait. I do not high-fence hunt. Some of the most difficult hunting that I have done is for bear in the Frank Church River-of-no-return Wilderness area in Idaho. But camping overnight was below tree-line, within reach of H2O, not as much snow to deal with either.

Goats and sheep complicate things due to season/weather/snow. On a spike camp, one may find themselves out of reach of a water supply for an extended period. I've had to be resupplied by aerial drop w/ MREs and H2O.

Chasing elk in this terrain is about a 23 mile per day event - horseback uphill, hiking downhill. Not for the timid.

 

[Feanor]

This might just qualify as the single most incoherent statement and one of the greatest misunderstanding of animal behavior in the history of THR. If I am reading it right you are saying that wolves kill hounds because they pose a danger to......Who? Humans or wolves?

Plott hounds aggression on the trail disinguishes them from the rest of the field, this is why 98% of all dog depredations by wolves in the great lakes, are Plott hounds, you sound like an adolescent, what with your silly groping about for insults.

So not only can dogs read and understand property boundaries but some can read better than others? Please explain.....

It was explained, they are notoriously aggressive while on the scent, this trait often leads to consistent conflicts around private property, especially, as most often, the handler(s)are miles off in their SUV or pick-up, leaving us(the landowner)alone to deal with them, sometimes they are discovered with terrible injuries delivered by bear, or gray wolves.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Feanor,.

Plain and simple you have your opinion based on your experience. What you describe and what I've experienced are two entirely different things. The form of hound hunting you describe doesn't even remotely correlate to how we do it and or it's done my part of the country. It would be impossible to sit in your truck and track your dogs here. The road systems and terrain don't allow it for the most part, but I've already explained that.

The OP (That's me) described or attempted to describe the most physically challenging hunts in North America. Plain and simple running hounds after bear or lion in mountainous country is one of the most physically challenging hunts in North America whether you want to believe it or not or whether or not you agree with hound hunting. Since you are never going to try it it's kind of mute point anyway so lets just drop it OK. You can do your thing in WI. And I'll still guide hunters here in NM and CO. And it doesn't affect you or me in any way.

Deal?

PS

The only people aggressive hounds I've ever encountered were Blood Hounds I won't have anything to do with them. In fact for liability reasons I won't have any people aggressive dogs around. Never have and never will.

 

[Feanor]

Plain and simple you have your opinion based on your experience. What you describe and what I've experienced are two entirely different things

As I said from the very beginning, you must do things differently out rocky mountain west way, then they do herebouts.

 

[dragon813gt]

Bagging an Elk on public land in PA. First good luck getting a tag. And then good luck getting one on public land. It's an extremely limited area.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

 

[T.R.]

Most challenging? Seeking permission to archery deer hunt in Chester County, Pennsylvania. I gave up after over 50 negative responces!

TR

 

[dragon813gt]

Really? I have permission at 5 spots totaling close to 1k acres. I find getting permission is rather easy.


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[ZeroJunk]

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs, were you, or your vile ilk, to escalate such trespass into a threat of violence, such as "beating" or "murdering" a landowner exercising such lawful rights in my neck of the woods, you'd be joining the dogs.

I love sabre rattling.

I own and lease a couple of thousand acres. Pretty much for N.C.

I have seen all manner of dogs. Beagles, Irish Setter, Walkers , mutts, even a Pit Bull.

Never occurred to me to shoot one of them.

If one is threatening you or your livestock is one thing.

But, anybody who shoots one just because it is "tresspassing" ???

It is curious that one so protective of wolves wants to shoot a dog.

 

[rajb123]

wild turkey

 

[buck460XVR]

Landowners are completely within their rights to destroy trespassing dogs

Actually Feanor.........Sporting dogs are protected here in Wisconsin. It's one thing if they attack you, your loved ones, your pets or your livestock, But shoot one just cause it's trespassing and someone finds out, you're up a creek without a paddle. It's not even legal to shoot a dog chasing deer in Wisconsin anymore, only a warden can do that. If you have an old sick dog that needs to be put down, you need to either take it to the vet or SSS. It's gotten that bad.

Now as for your hostility towards hounds and houndsmen, you are not alone here in Wisconsin. The topic of trespassing dogs and their owners was one of the most heated discussions at the Spring Conservation hearing I went to. As you said, running hounds here is much different that in the large tracts out west or how it used to be here 50 years ago. For those that don't know, unlike out west where you have parcels of public land consisting of 100s of thousands of acres. Public land tracts here is Wisconsin are much smaller and cut up, many times with small private parcels in and around. Out west ranches can consist of tens of thousands of acres. Here in Wisconsin, an average farm is 160 to 220 acres. A farm of 500 acres is huge. Mixed with these small farms are small tracts of private recreation land, 20 acres and up. To get permission to hunt a continuous area big enough to run hounds all day is nearly impossible. So many houndsmen don't even try. They let the dogs out on roads adjacent to private land they have no access to and let them run into the wind and then drive to the next road or parcel that they do have permission for to wait them out. They watch on their GPS tracking units where the dogs are heading. If they miss them on one road, they go on to the next road and so on. They either shoot the 'yote off the road(illegally) or they let the dogs kill them when they finally catch them. If they miss or the 'yote is got more wind left than the dogs, they let fresh dogs out. The excuse they always give when questioned is the same one H&H gave...."dogs can't read signs and don't know property lines" because that excuse has worked in the past. Even tho they let their dogs out knowing full well the dogs would run across property the had no permission to hunt. And yes, the owner is responsible and pays the fine for a dog caught trespassing....and yes Wardens have gotten smart to these violators. Thing is, how does a normal landowner know whose dogs are running across his property unless he catches them? Friend of mine had this exact thing happen to him. Guy asked for permission and my friend said no. Guy went down the road and let his dogs out. My friend saw this and called the warden. Owner of the dogs denied he let them out on purpose, even tho the tracts in the snow proved different. Friend set leg hold traps on his property and sprayed the surrounding area with 'yote urine(legal to do for 'yotes). Next time he checked them the tracts in the snow showed someone had came onto his property and released a dog caught in the traps. Next he set Conibears the same way and put up several game cams(again, perfectly legal to do for trapping 'yotes). Next time he checked them he found a dead dog and his cameras gone. Tracks showed the owner came and removed the collar and radio transmitter and left the dead dog. My friend found his game cams smashed and in his mailbox. This is not the exception around here.....it is the norm. Large areas of public land have been predator hunted out. The majority of 'yotes are on private land with no access.....and yep according to their owners, their trespassing dogs can't read and don't know property lines. I know this is not how you hunt H&H, and probably not they way it is in most other parts of the country, but this is how it is around here.

 

[Art Eatman]

Thanks, buck. Good explanation. And enjoyable to see that without having to wade through a bunch of macho hostility.

But enough. This thread is like that old Ernest Tubb song, "Driftwood on the River"--and we've drifted way downstream...